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Gestalt - Community Package....

S

ShadowChemosh

Well-known member
Allot of people have asked for Gestalt rules from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana for Pathfinder. For a long time the only way was to make a new archetype that combined your two classes together. This was time consuming and difficult to do. I have a new addon that is designed to make things allot easier.

Download
If you have the community servers setup already then simply go to Updates in Hero Lab and download "Pathfinder Gestalt (v1.0)". If you don't have the community servers setup then go to THIS post and follow the one time setup instruction.

Instructions
To use the Gestalt Addon properly requires some special rules to follow in Hero Lab.
  • Each time you level, you must add 1 level of Gestalt before adding your desired classes.
  • After adding 1 level of Gestalt, 1 level of class A, and 1 level of class B, immediately switch to the Gestalt tab and select your two classes in the picker. This will calculate BAB, Saves, HP, Feats, and Skill Points based upon your selections.
  • Once you select a class on either the left or right side, you must always select that class on the same side. So if at level 1 you chose Fighter/Rogue then at level 2 chosen Wizard/Rogue, you must choose Rogue on the same side at level 1 and level 2 otherwise it won't calculate correctly.
Bug Reporting & Support
NOTE: Valdacil is now maintaining this addon.

Feel free to post to this thread with questions, comments, or bug reports.
 
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Version
V1.1 August 5, 2017
- This update fixes the HP calculation issue that was reported shortly after v1.0 was published. With the new update, Gestalt will now check if you are using the Max HP or Avg HP at new levels options. If so, then it will calculate the appropriate HP based on the selected classes and set the HP field. If not using either option, then it doesn't set the field, allowing you to set it yourself. I changed it set the Gestalt class HDSides only for the latest level, so if you multiclass you'll know what your maximum HP are for the last level.
- I've also made a change to fix the display issue that was reported where the HP in the statblock would show all hit dice from all classes.

V1.0 July 23, 2017
-Major re-write by Valdacil.

V0.6 July 27, 2014
-Fixed incorrect skill points when a Int score higher than 12.
-Added two new adjustments. These adjustments will make it easy to adjust the Base Attack Bonus and Base Save Value by showing you the adjusted value on the adjustments: "Gestalt, BAB"; "Gestalt, Saves". This will allow gamers to easily adjust their BAB and Save values based on their home games Multiclassing rules.

V0.5 July 6, 2014
-Initial release to the community. Just out of beta testing....
 
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Known Issues
  • Favored Class Bonuses: Gestalt's Favored Class Bonuses will only be based upon the first two classes chosen. If you later choose a third (or forth, etc) class bonuses for your race from those classes will not be present in the Gestalt Favored Class Bonus chooser. Personally, I recommend NOT using the Gestalt Favored Class Bonus chooser and actually selecting one of your chosen classes as your favored class.
  • Some favored class bonuses don't work properly when selected as Gestalt favored class bonuses. These are typically ones that have configuration options like Human Sorcerer. Again, select the actual class for your favored class instead of Gestalt for these to work properly.
  • Combinations that have the same feature do not stack properly. One example of this is Sneak Attack. Hero Lab calculates your sneak attack bonus by counting how many instances of the Sneak Attack pick are present on the hero. If you choose two classes that get this feature, Gestalt should give the better progression but Hero Lab is stacking them together resulting in significantly inflated values. Use adjustments to bring these handful of improperly stacking features back to appropriate values.
  • Selecting 'Non-Player Character' on the Configure Your Hero screen causes some things not to calculate properly (most notably HP). If you want a Gestalt NPC, choose 'Hero' regardless if the character is a NPC.
  • The Gestalt HDSides which displays next to the HP value on the Classes tab will only display for the last level of selected classes. This allows users not using Max HP or Avg HP options to know the maximum for the latest selected classes. If using Max HP or Avg HP options, the previous levels will still have the correct HP, but the HDSides will only show for the latest selected classes.
  • If using the optional Attribute Bonus rules, the first 2 ability bonuses received at level 4 will display as Level 4 and Level 8. This is a display only issue and is hard coded by Hero Lab. At level 8 you will still receive 2 more ability bonuses (which will display as Level 12 and Level 16). This is a display only issue, but functions properly.
 
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Optional Rules

These rules are used by my gaming group and can be toggled on/off from the Configure Hero screen:
  • HD Bonus Option: If enabled, grants bonus HP at each level if both classes have d8 or higher HD sides. Calculation is higher of the two chosen classes plus bonus based on HD sides of the second class as follows: d8 = +1, d10 = +2, d12 = +3…
  • Saving Throw Bonus Option: If enabled, grants a +1 misc bonus to any save that has a 'Good' rate for both chosen classes. This bonus is only granted for the last chosen class combination. So if you chose Monk(U)/Rogue(U) you would receive a +1 misc bonus to Reflex since both of those classes have 'Good' reflex. However, if you next chosen Monk(U)/Fighter, you would lose the +1 misc bonus to Reflex and instead gain a +1 misc bonus to Fortitude (since Fighter is 'Poor' Reflex, but both Monk(U) and Fighter share 'Good' Fortitude).
  • Skill Points Bonus Option: If enabled, calculates skill points each level as higher of the two chosen classes plus a bonus of half the second chosen class. Example: Rogue(U) = 8; Monk(U) = 4 therefore total skill points that level would be 10 + INT (8 + .5*4 = 10).
  • Skills Bonus Option: If enabled, grants a +1 untyped bonus to any skill that is a class skill from two sources (two chosen classes, feats, traits, etc). This is cumulative. If chosen class A and chosen class B both have Perception as a class skill, then Perception would get a +1 untyped bonus. This would also work if chosen class A had Perception as a class skill and you chose a trait that gave Perception as a class skill.
  • Attribute Bonus Option: If enabled, grants +1 to two attributes (instead of one attribute) at 4, 8, 16, and 20. At level 12 grants +1 to all attributes (instead of +1 to one attribute). When granted two bonuses at 4, Hero Lab will show one of them as being for level 8. This is a display only issue and you will still receive two more attribute selections at 8. For this rule you are not supposed to select the same attribute for any given level (should be two different attributes), but Hero Lab does not enforce this rule.
  • Starting Wealth Calculation: If enabled, calculates starting cash for first level as higher of the two chosen classes plus half of the second chosen class. Example: Fighter = 5d6, Rogue(U) = 4d6 therefore Starting Cash = 7d6 x 100. This assumes that all classes use Xd6 x 100.
 
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Dianae said:
Thanks for the Gestalt Package! I'll try it out in a bit.
Click to expand...
Yea let me know if you find anything strange. No way I can test every possible scenario of characters. So I am sure something will come up but it seems to be working pretty well for me.

One suggestion I have if you plan to do higher level characters is to level one level at a time. So add the gestalt and the two other classes. Switch to the Gestalt tab and select your two classes. THEN add another gestalt class. That was how I was testing and that seemed to work.

I am also happy to say I have no "foreach" loops so it should be a VERY low CPU usage addon. :p
 
Found my first possible issue, I think.
1st level, Fighter/Monk
2nd level, Monk/Ninja

Looking at my saves, they are at +3 fort, +3 Will and +5 reflex, when it should be +4. the +2 from Monk 1, and +2 from Ninja 1. BAB is +1 which should be +2 if you are going by when the class gets a +1, but correct if you were using the .5/.75/1 variant for 1/2 3/4 and full BAB calculations.

Only just started poking around, though.
 
Dianae said:
Found my first possible issue, I think.
1st level, Fighter/Monk
2nd level, Monk/Ninja

Looking at my saves, they are at +3 fort, +3 Will and +5 reflex, when it should be +4. the +2 from Monk 1, and +2 from Ninja 1. BAB is +1 which should be +2 if you are going by when the class gets a +1, but correct if you were using the .5/.75/1 variant for 1/2 3/4 and full BAB calculations.

Only just started poking around, though.
Click to expand...
3,3,5 looks right to me as you are a level 2 monk giving 3 in all saves and then 2 more in ref from ninja giving 5.

BAB does appear to be off as it should be getting one from two levels of monk and one from fighter. Guess I was more concerned with getting saves to work that I didn't watch the BAB calculations. :(

Until I can get the BAB fixed you could use my adjustment addon to change your BAB using "Attack, Base Attack Bonus". I am going to be really busy at work this week so it could be a week or two to get any fixes.
 
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But the saves aren't truly additive. you take the best bonus from the classes at each level. I go from 2,2,2 at 1st level to 3,3,5, a gain of +3 to my reflex, when monk gives +1(when it goes from +2 to +3) or Ninja gives +2.

No class gets +3 to a save from normal level progression. you either get +0, +1, or +2, and the +2 only happens when you have the first level of a new class.

That line of logic would be like saying that lvl 1 monk has saves of 2,2,2 and since level 2 of monk says 3,3,3 then my 2nd level monk would have saves of 5,5,5.

I'll use the Adjustments to get things back into line. I'll see what else I can find to help you beta this.
 
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Dianae said:
But the saves aren't truly additive. you take the best bonus from the classes at each level. I go from 2,2,2 at 1st level to 3,3,5, a gain of +3 to my reflex, when monk gives +1(when it goes from +2 to +3) or Ninja gives +2.
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Um they are additive actually. If I am normal level 2 monk I have 3,3,3 and I add one level of fighter I get a total of 5,3,3. I add another level of fighter and we get 6,3,3.

You basically just take the save values at any given class level and add it to any other class you are multiclass with.

Dianae said:
That line of logic would be like saying that lvl 1 monk has saves of 2,2,2 and since level 2 of monk says 3,3,3 then my 2nd level monk would have saves of 5,5,5.
Click to expand...
Not with the same class but you do with multiple classes yes.

I guess the whole issue here is if a "monk/ninja" is considered a whole new class? Separate from a Fighter/Monk level? If so then really we should have 4,4,4 in all saves but then you should have +0 BAB as you are not level 2 monk your a level 1 monk/ninja both with a BAB of +0 being added to a Fighter/Monk BAB of +1. My thinking is that is not the case and if it is 100% true this whole addon needs to be scrapped back to the concept stage. :(

The issue is that their is like two sentences of information to go on for gestalt saves:
d20srd said:
Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.
Click to expand...

Sigh... Need to think about this some.... :confused:
 
That's why I was saying it's not exactly additive... My husband is trying to sum it up in a different way.

An issue that may be here is that the rules for gestalt do not support each combination as a given single class. Each level of gestalt, the intention is to look at what each class would normally get for it's current level and take the higher value for the things that would over lap, such as individual saves, Base attack, and the like.

So in the earlier example, at level 2, a monk ads +1 to all of his saves, and a first level rogue adds a +2 to reflex, and 0 to the others. This adds up to a net result of +1 to Fort and Will and +2 to Reflex, because the Rogue's value is higher than the Monk's and thus replaces it.

Gestalt should never allow for a class to gain a higher bonus in any one value than a non-gestalt character could achieve at any given level.
 
I have moved this discussion over to the d20 boards HERE. Their was an existing discussion going about gestalt and I started asking this same question. Based on your example what the final save values are.

The truth is after googling last night I found NO consistent answer. It seems pretty wide open area of how it gets "interpreted".
 
First, a hearty thank you for doing this!

Second, I believe that Dianae has the right of it.

  • Level 01: Take the highest save of the two classes in each category.
  • Level 02: Take the highest save of the two new classes in each category (so +1 CON/+1WIS from Monk and +2 REF from Ninja).

Confusion about things like this is one of the reason I allow only one Gestalt class in my games where I use these rules. So in my games, using the current example, a character could take their first level as a Gestalt Monk//Fighter. If they wished to multiclass, any multiclass levels would only be from one class (So they could be a Gestalt 01/Wizard 02, or a Gestalt 03/Wizard 01, for example). Will your system support this as well?
 
Mowgli said:
So in my games, using the current example, a character could take their first level as a Gestalt Monk//Fighter. If they wished to multiclass, any multiclass levels would only be from one class (So they could be a Gestalt 01/Wizard 02, or a Gestalt 03/Wizard 01, for example). Will your system support this as well?
Click to expand...
Ummm "maybe". I never tested it but I think it should be ok in theory. The only issue I could see if you tried to take a single level of one of the gestalt levels again.

Give it a try and let me know what you find. :D
 
I tried it out and it worked, so far as I could tell in my very brief test. And as you said, adding a level of one of the classes from the Gestalt did not work properly - HD read as d0, for one thing.

The class summary also became more confusing, as the classes were listed in alphabetical order, causing the levels in Cavalier (single class) to appear between Barbarian and Rogue (Gestalt classes).

But that's pretty minor - this is very cool!
 
Found another issue, with Skill Points.

Level 1 Fighter/Magus
both classes are 2+Int and I have +1 hp for my Favored class Bonus
With a 10 or 11 Int I have 2 Skill Points - as expected
With a 12 or 13 Int I have 3 Skill Points - again expected
With a 14 or 15 Int I have 6 Skill Points - it added 3?
With a 16 or 17 Int I have 9 Skill Points - again +3 Skill Points for 1 point of Int?
With a 18 or 19 Int I have 12 Skill Points - Again, +3 Skill points.

If it had been +3 skill points every time the Int Modifier increased by one, I'd say that it's counting each class as giving skill points or something, but the math is right for +0 and +1 Modifier. You might have a Multiplication set in instead of an addition?
 
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