Gestalt - Community Package....

[stargazer_dragon]

Post # 35 showed Raw and #36 showed fractional numbers anyhows

For the most part I am just doing my best to show the math break down of both the Raw and the fractional. I honestly prefer the fractional simply because it is much more accurate. But wanted to be sure that I gave all the RAW information hopefully in a way that shadow can follow what I say. Sometimes I can be rather hard to follow because of the way I word things.

 

[Dianae]

Fun with learning(failing) how to multi-quote

But away from the Great Saves Debate and Back to Debugging.

I was attempting to re build an NPC that was a Aristocrat 3/Fighter 5 to add A full Magus Gestalt.

I somehow ended up with +11 Base Attack Bonus. Not sure if it's the Aristocrat that is throwing it off, or the multi-classing, but either way, should never have a Higher BAB than character Level.

I know, Mixed Classes are buggier than still swamp water in August, But just wanted to bring it up.

 

[CorzatTheGray]

So read everything you guys said. I do appreciate it. It has helped...

Is the following correct base saves?

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard  Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5

If so I found a way I think to code this into HL. If not its back to the drawing boards.

I believe it should be more like this if I've remembered and reread correctly how it all works...

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / [b][COLOR="Red"]Ref +5[/COLOR][/b] / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard  Fort +4 / [b][COLOR="red"]Ref +6[/COLOR][/b] / Will +5

At 3rd character level you will receive the rogue level 2 good REF save +1
At 4th character level you will gain yet another REF save +1 from the monk 4 as you show with the FORT save and the +2 WILL from Wizard 1.

Try it out with a class other than the monk to see what kind of craziness shows with the saves w/o all saves being Good.

Gestalt Fighter1/Rogue1    BAB +1 / Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +0  |  F1 / F1 / R1 / F1&R1
Gestalt Fighter2/Wizard1   BAB +2 / Fort +3 / Ref +2 / Will +2  |  F2 / F2 / F2&W1 / W1
Gestalt Fighter3/Cleric1   BAB +3 / Fort +5 / Ref +3 / Will +4  |  F3 / C1 / F3 / C1
Gestalt Fighter4/Rogue2    BAB +4 / Fort +6 / Ref +4 / Will +4  |  F4&R2 / F4 / R2 / F4&R2

In the above I've put out to the far right what class is giving the "better of the two" at each Gestalt level.

 

[stargazer_dragon]

Gestalt Fighter1/Rogue1    BAB +1 / Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +0  |  F1 / F1 / R1 / F1&R1
Gestalt Fighter2/Wizard1   BAB +2 / Fort +3 / Ref +2 / Will +2  |  F2 / F2 / F2&W1 / W1
Gestalt Fighter3/Cleric1   BAB +3 / Fort +5 / Ref +3 / Will +4  |  F3 / C1 / F3 / C1
Gestalt Fighter4/Rogue2    BAB +4 / Fort +6 / Ref +4 / Will +4  |  F4&R2 / F4 / R2 / F4&R2

In the above I've put out to the far right what class is giving the "better of the two" at each Gestalt level.

Gestalt 1st
Fighter1/Rogue1 BAB +1 / Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +0

Would give good saves of Fort & Reflex adding +2 fort +2 Reflex and Poor Will save adding 0

Gestalt 2nd
Fighter2/Wizard1 BAB +2 / Fort +3 / Ref +2 / Will +2

second Good Fort save would add +1, Being First Good save for Will it would add +2 will, Being first Poor save for Reflex it would Add nothing


Gestalt 3rd
Fighter3/Cleric1 BAB +3 / Fort +3 / Ref +2 / Will +3

Would again Give Good Fort Save, being the 3rd good fort save it would add +0, Would give good Will save from Cleric - This is second Good will save so would give +1, Would be Second Poor Reflex save so no gain

Gestalt 4th
Fighter4/Rogue2 BAB +4 / Fort +4 / Ref +3 / Will +3

Would yet again Give Good fort save so 4th Good fort save would give +1 - Would give Good Reflex save - 2nd Good reflex save so would give +1, Would give Poor Will save - second Poor Will save so no gain

every even Good Save after the first and every 3rd poor save adds +1, Again by RAW you look only at the Progression for save and BAB and HD gains for gestalt. I think people get so caught up in the small parts of gestalt like what actual classes are being emulated by the gestalt class that they try to treat it as a multiclass.

for simplistic try braking it down to just the progression then solve saves as a example

Gestalt Saves
Level BAB Fort Will Refl
1st Fast Good Poor Good
2nd Fast Good Good Poor
3rd Fast Good Good Poor
4th Fast Good Poor Good
5th Fast Good Good Good
6th Medium Good Good Good
7th Medium Good Good Good
8th Medium Good Good Good
__________________________________________
Total BAB -5 Fast BAB 3 Medium = +7
Total Fort -8 Good = +6 Fort
Total Will - 6 good + 2 poor = +5 Will (+5 good +0 poor)
Total Refl - 6 good + 2 poor = +5 Reflex (+5 good +0 poor)

This by the way is
1st Fighter1/Rogue1
2nd Fighter2/Wizard1
3rd Fighter3/Cleric1
4th Fighter4/Rogue2
5th Fighter/Monk
6th Monk/Rogue
7th Monk/Rogue
8th Monk/Wizard
Fort -+6 Reflex +5 Will +5 BAB +7 Flurry of blows BAB +8


The above is all by RAW, I personally Prefer the fraction method, but I assume we are talking about RAW rules.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Fun with learning(failing) how to multi-quote

But away from the Great Saves Debate and Back to Debugging.

I was attempting to re build an NPC that was a Aristocrat 3/Fighter 5 to add A full Magus Gestalt.

I somehow ended up with +11 Base Attack Bonus. Not sure if it's the Aristocrat that is throwing it off, or the multi-classing, but either way, should never have a Higher BAB than character Level.

I know, Mixed Classes are buggier than still swamp water in August, But just wanted to bring it up.

I have a fix for the skill points that I will release very soon.

As for the BAB issue one you found. Could you just send me the .por file please? I am not currently able to reproduce the issue. My email is forum user id at yahoo dot com. Or you can attach .por files to posts in this thread.

As for the BASE save issues. People in this very thread don't seem to agree on how its to be done. I will most likely need to have various options to pick and calculate in different ways. I am not sure when I will be able to get that. So I will make sure their is an adjustment that lets a gamer adjust the values themselves.

I will add a warning for now about multiclassing gestalt that it may not calculate the way each persons groups wants it. I know its a cheap coop out for now but its the best I got for the time being....

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Anyone with "bug reports" please also attach your .por file to your post. It will make it "much" easier for me to debug the issue if I can see it and replicate it. You can attach .por files to posts in this thread by clicking on the "Manage Attachments" button at the bottom of your page when posting a reply.

 

[stargazer_dragon]

works, might use the fraction method as a base simply because of ease of programming as well as wide acceptance of the method.

Thanks for all the work You have done.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

If you took monk, rouge at first then wizard sorce at second your saves would gain the bonus from fast progression at lvl 1 and wizard/sorce progression at lvl 2.

This is my understanding as well. Another example:

Say we take Wizard//Rogue at first level, for saves: FORT +0/REF +2/WILL +2 (the best save from the two classes in each category).

At second level if you took Fighter//Wizard, the saves would be FORT +2/REF +2/WILL +3 (Reflex doesn't change as both Fighter and Wizard are REF +0 at their levels - Fighter 01 and Wizard 02 - but Fighter gets FORT +2 at level 01 and Wizard gets another +1 at level 02).

EDIT: Late to the party . . . responded to the first unread post before I saw all of the other posts that followed.

 

[Dianae]

Attached is the .por with the character at several levels.

I left everything other than level choices un done, so that there is nothing else that might have been the conflict.

 

[repair]

Skill point fix

Did you ever fix the skill points?

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Did you ever fix the skill points?

I did and then broke the BAB calculation. Sigh...

I have tried to find a few minutes to reset to a working stage for non-multiclassed gestalt to release. Then give a BAB and base save adjustment so gamers could adjust the values manually when they multiclassed.

I am just a little busy as my AC system went out this week and having that installed today as its summer in Chicago and its HOT! Then I go to basement to show the AC guy and find my water heater is leaking.

So may not get to this still for a little bit....

 

[Dianae]

I did and then broke the BAB calculation. Sigh...

I have tried to find a few minutes to reset to a working stage for non-multiclassed gestalt to release. Then give a BAB and base save adjustment so gamers could adjust the values manually when they multiclassed.

I'm still using v0.50 so the Multiclassing BAB break I reported was in there from the get go, unless you broke it further with fixing skill points.

I am just a little busy as my AC system went out this week and having that installed today as its summer in Chicago and its HOT! Then I go to basement to show the AC guy and find my water heater is leaking.

So may not get to this still for a little bit....

Ouch, and understandably so. I hope things go smoother for you soon.

 

[LazarX]

So if you're doing a 10th level gestalt you should have 10 gestalt levels and 10 levels each of class one and class two? You showed how to make a first level gestalt, but how do you advance beyond first level, and what if you change one of your classes at say, fifth, changing class one to class three for instance?

 

[ShadowChemosh]

So if you're doing a 10th level gestalt you should have 10 gestalt levels and 10 levels each of class one and class two?

Correct. Each time you level you add a Gestalt class and then the two classes you wish to combine. Then go to the Gestalt Class and at level 2 select the two classes from the drop down lists. Repeat at each level.

You showed how to make a first level gestalt, but how do you advance beyond first level, and what if you change one of your classes at say, fifth, changing class one to class three for instance?

When you say change I assume you mean you where a fighter/rogue and now going to be a fighter/sorcerer? In that case you are multiclassing and as discussed above the BAB and Base Saves are not generating correctly yet.

Otherwise on the Gestalt tab look for the 5th level ability and select Fighter/Sorcerer.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Version
V0.6 July 27, 2014
-Fixed incorrect skill points when a Int score higher than 12.
-Added two new adjustments. These adjustments will make it easy to adjust the Base Attack Bonus and Base Save Value by showing you the adjusted value on the adjustments: "Gestalt, BAB"; "Gestalt, Saves". This will allow gamers to easily adjust their BAB and Save values based on their home games Multiclassing rules.

For now when you multiclass you will have to use the Adjustments to reset your BAB and Base Saves to what you need. In the future this will improve with allowing different options for calculations but that is going to be down the road.

 

[Dianae]

Thanks, SC!

I can't wait to start using this in my campaign.

/e rushes off to update and start playing with character gen.

 

[CorzatTheGray]

Sweet! Thanks Shadow!

 

[Ualaa]

With Gestalt, you basically have two decent options if you want the basic mathematical principles of the game to function.

You can allow any gestalt combination, but then restrict your players to that specific combination for every level advance.
As in, if you start out as a Fighter|Wizard, you must continue with Fighter|Wizard at every level up.

Or you can allow your characters to gestalt multiclass, but then you need to use the optional 'Fractional BAB' and 'Fractional Saves' for the system to work.
While the 'Fractional' rules are optional, the entire Unearthed Arcana book is also optional. The argument against the sidebar being an optional rule is kind of moot; if your group wants to use the optional Gestalt system, imposing the (also optional) fractional BAB/Saves -- which makes the system not break down -- is a very good idea.



Fractional BAB adds either 1.00, 0.75, or 0.50 to the current BAB, depending on whether the better of the two classes would have had +20 BAB at level 20 (full BAB), or +15 BAB at level 20 (3/4 BAB) or +10 BAB at level 20 (1/2 BAB).

Fractional Saves give you a value of either +2.00 or +0.33, at first level depending on whether the save is good (+2) from either of your classes or is poor (+0) from both of your classes.
Thereafter, you only add +0.50 (1/2) or +0.33 (1/3), depending on if either of the classes has that save as good or if both of those classes have the save as poor.
The decimal system can get kind of messy, you could use increments of 1/6 (with either 2/6 or 3/6 added).

This means that at 20th level, a character cannot have more than +20 BAB, nor better than +12 to a given saving thrown.
The math of the system assumes characters fall within this base range, and is then modified by items and buffs, etc.



As an example, here is a Druid who wants to focus on Wild Shape.

LV 01: Druid 1 | Rogue 1... BAB 0.75, Fort +2.00, Ref +2.00, Will +2.00
LV 02: Druid 2 | Rogue 2... BAB 1.50, Fort +2.50, Ref +2.50, Will +2.50
LV 03: Druid 3 | Fighter 1.. BAB +2.50, Fort +3.00, Ref +2.83, Will +3.00
LV 04: Druid 4 | Fighter 2.. BAB +3.50, Fort +3.50, Ref +3.16, Will +3.50

The character has all of the abilities of a Druid 4, Rogue 2 and Fighter 2... because they took the best features from each. The druid did not have Trap Finding at level 1, but the rogue did, so the Gestalt Character does too.

The BAB is +3 (but 0.50 closer to +4, that a straight Druid or Rogue would be).
The Druid provides a good Fort/Will at each level.

If the character had been optimized a little less, and say taken the Fighter levels before the Rogue levels, we have:

LV 01: Druid 1 | Fighter 1.. BAB +1.00, Fort +2.00, Ref +0.33, Will +2.00
LV 02: Druid 2 | Fighter 2.. BAB +2.00, Fort +2.50, Ref +0.66, Will +2.50
LV 03: Druid 3 | Rogue 1... BAB +2.75, Fort +3.00, Ref +1.16, Will +3.00
LV 04: Druid 4 | Rogue 2... BAB +3.50, Fort +3.50, Ref +1.66, Will +3.50

Note that the character level 3, including the first level of Rogue, only added 0.50 to Reflex, as that is a good (but not character level 1) saving throw for the character.

 

[Dianae]

While Fractional has the least amount of breakable rulings, the other side of the coding coin is how Herolab's hard coding works for character progression.

There is only so much that can or can't be done by the end users. There does come a point where a brick wall is met, the basic core of the compiler. If HeroLab does not support Fractional Progression, (I do not know) then this would be impossible to code as an end user.

 

[Ualaa]

Hero Lab is has been an extremely powerful tool in my experience.
I don't know what it's limitations are in this regard.

ShadowChemosh's adjustment tool, can effectively force base BAB or base Saves based on their correct 'Fractional' values, if those are tracked with paper or a spreadsheet.
If its possible for these to be calculated within Hero Lab, that would of course be better.

And while the Fractional system keeps closest to the basic mathematical assumptions of the system, that's not saying some groups wouldn't prefer to use additive values and have very broken characters for a one-shot, or perhaps that they enjoy playing demi-gods.

Ultimately, having the option to choose Fractional or Additive would be the best option, but if that's not possible then pick one or the other, and use the adjustments option if you need to adjust what Hero Lab calculates to what your group is using.