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Archetypes where you can choose what abilities to replace?

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prototype00

Active member
I was playing around with HeroLab yesterday, and I noticed that for the Qinggong monk, you are required to take all the archetype levels and replace them all with ki powers, however as I understand it that is not the intent from Paizo, and that you can choose which abilities to replace.

Having played around with the editor (made a rogue scout archetype for the ninja, which it actually qualifies for under the rules, yay! :)), I was wondering how hard it would be to code for an archetype where you have a list of class abilities that you can replace and a list of ki powers that you can take at the appropriate levels?

Does anyone with experience with the editor know how hard this would be to do?

Cheers,

prototype00
 
In the editor there is an option to "Replace Item". So if you want a different skill for Jumps, lets say, you would create your version of Jump and replace the current version by checking the "Replace Item" field.

Your question might be more complcated though, do you have any more details?
 
A qinggong monk is basically a core monk with all the usual monk abilities (though they've obviously lost the ones that other archetypes replace, if any other archetypes are taken).

If they want to, they can choose to drop an ability (say high jump at lvl 4, when they reach level 4) to choose from a list of ki powers instead.

These ki powers all have a certain level requirement, so if you're lvl 8, you can only pick the ki powers that are lvl 8 or lower.

But the thing that they aren't required to do is to drop all the listed replaceable abilities and replace them all with ki powers which is the way it currently works in Herolab.

So I was wondering if there was a way to make said pick and choose Qinggong archetype in the editor.

prototype00
 
The Qinggong Monk archetype is already available in HL You'll need to purchase the Ultimate Magic package.
 
Mathias said:
The Qinggong Monk archetype is already available in HL You'll need to purchase the Ultimate Magic package.
Click to expand...

I'm aware of this, and I have this package. But as I said in my first post, it replaces all the abilities that the archetype lists and doesn't allow you to pick which ones to replace.

prototype00
 
However, the original abilities are present as ki powers, so you can add them back as choices at the appropriate level or later if you wish.
 
I just added 4 levels of Monk and the Qinggong Monk archetype to a blank character, and on the Monk tab, it offers me one Ki Power selection, as it should, because the archetype gives its first option at 4th level.
 
But can you say that you didn't want to give up slow fall for the ki power? I.e. can you as a Qinggong monk keep slow fall and not pick a ki power for that level? Because in the Qinggong monk description, it's optional whether you give up the ability for the ki power or not:

A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
Click to expand...

emphasis mine, of course.

prototype00
 
I think mathias, that the user wants the ability to choose which monk abilities to swap out for ki powers on an individual basis rather than having all removed. My contention is that this is not necessary because even though an ability is replaced, you can add it back in as a ki power, resulting in no net change.

Edit: Ninja'd
 
Aaron said:
I think mathias, that the user wants the ability to choose which monk abilities to swap out for ki powers on an individual basis rather than having all removed. My contention is that this is not necessary because even though an ability is replaced, you can add it back in as a ki power, resulting in no net change.

Edit: Ninja'd
Click to expand...

Ah, sorry Aaron, hadn't seen your previous statement. If I might voice two objections to this?

1.) The original abilities given up are sometimes available only at the next level from when they are available, i.e. if you give up high jump at 5th level, you don't get it back until 6th level. Its fine in the long run, but sometimes you just don't want to give up a power at that level?

2.) It basically locks out all other monk archetypes (because the class doesn't have any of the listed abilities to start out with, it has a bunch of ki power selections) when it in reality is the archetype that blends with every other monk archetype.

Or am I missing a workaround here? :confused:

prototype00
 
I tried building the archetype with some way to allow things not to be replaced and it didn't work, which is why I went with the current method - allowing you to replace the removed abilities with themselves.
 
Mathias said:
I tried building the archetype with some way to allow things not to be replaced and it didn't work, which is why I went with the current method - allowing you to replace the removed abilities with themselves.
Click to expand...

Ah, right, thats brilliant. So that takes care of my 1st objection (I obviously hadn't looked into the class deep enough), but could it be possible to make it invisible to other archetypes, so it doesn't lock them when taking the 1st monk level? But of course show redtext when an ability that is replaced by another archetype is replaced as a ki power by the User?

prototype00
 
Last edited:
Those are valid points, and there isn't a workaround at the moment.

I'll put it on our to-do list to get a workaround in for you, but it may take a while due to upcoming releases in the leadup to GenCon. I'll have to investigate further, but the ideal solution you proposed, choosing each ability individually to be replaced, may not be feasable from a effort vs benefit standpoint (I think this is the only archetype that uses this kind of mechanic). More likely, it'll be something closer to a "Trust me that I'm taking archetypes that don't conflict" setting, which you can choose to have the program ignore conflicting archetype replacements. That way you can combine quingong with other archetypes without errors.

Edit: Darn my lack of refreshment.
 
Aaron said:
Those are valid points, and there isn't a workaround at the moment.

I'll put it on our to-do list to get a workaround in for you, but it may take a while due to upcoming releases in the leadup to GenCon. I'll have to investigate further, but the ideal solution you proposed, choosing each ability individually to be replaced, may not be feasable from a effort vs benefit standpoint (I think this is the only archetype that uses this kind of mechanic). More likely, it'll be something closer to a "Trust me that I'm taking archetypes that don't conflict" setting, which you can choose to have the program ignore conflicting archetype replacements. That way you can combine quingong with other archetypes without errors.

Edit: Darn my lack of refreshment.
Click to expand...

Sorry for just jumping on the board (first couple of posts after all) and then griping and giving you guys a bunch of work (especially for an edge case like the Qinggong monk). It really is a rad program and worth every penny I spent on it.

Thanks for helping me out and the quick replies as well! :)

prototype00
 
Mathias said:
Actually, the workaround is to ignore the error messages and keep working on your character.
Click to expand...

I have indeed done this, but as I recall from trying to make a ninja with the scout archetype, doesn't the output for character sheet not list redtexted abilities/archetypes? Which is a bit of a bummer, or is there a workaround for that as well?

prototype00
 
Please report any printing problems as specific issues - the exact combination of classes/races/other selections to generate that problem, not as vague general issues.
 
Mathias said:
Please report any printing problems as specific issues - the exact combination of classes/races/other selections to generate that problem, not as vague general issues.
Click to expand...

Ah right, sorry. I thought the non-printing of redtexted abilities was a design choice and not a bug. Good that you told me otherwise.

prototype00
 
Mathias said:
I tried building the archetype with some way to allow things not to be replaced and it didn't work, which is why I went with the current method - allowing you to replace the removed abilities with themselves.
Click to expand...

I ran into this situation a little while ago while working on a character on a computer I don't have Hero Lab on, so I was using PCGen. They do it by having each swappable ability be a separate archetype you can take, provided you haven't taken a conflicting archetype. Thus there's "Qinggong (Slow Fall)", "Qinggong (Timeless body)", etc.

I'm not sure if that would work for Hero Lab's setup or not, but it impressed me when I saw it.
 
Any update on this? I was just going to make a custom one for my specific character using the editor but it's telling me I can't make any changes or that my changes will not be saved, and that's really annoying.
 
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