Hero Lab Editor is horrible and Tutorial*2 bad

Leopold · April 14th, 2013, 05:21 AM

Flame suit on. Please read the whole thing. Constructive Criticism on an overall great product.

Summary: Tutorial is out of date. Referring screen shots and data mostly wrong. Confusing to read. Editor overly complex, not simple to do minor tasks. Frustrating to build a basic Class. Help me to Help You.

Long time user and lurker on LW forums. Very happy with the product overall. I, like many on here, needed to create a class: Armiger from Super Genius Games.

I had slugged through the editor once a year ago and gave up with it being incredibly difficult to understand and try to add simple things. I thought that it had been awhile and maybe the editor changed in the last year.

I fired up the editor and was presented with a sea of tabs. A litteral wall of tabs that are not easily identifiable and already I'm looking at each one wondering what they do and why I'm presented with them. I pick the class tab, put in some info, very straight forward with data input for basic items: skills, hit points, saves, etc. I thought this was going to be a breeze as this front end sped me through everything, Impressed!

Now I get to special abilities and the sea of tabs overwhelms me. Is it a Custom Ability? Class Ability? There's a list I have to present to the user, how do I do that? Maybe the Tutorial will help! I head to the tutorial and check it out.

Blue vs. Tan: Frist thing I notice is that the background is blue instead of tan. Frist sign that this hasn't been updated in awhile. I dig through the Class creation tutorial and see that the documentation is calling for me to click on a tab that doesn't exist, enter data into a "Miscellaneous" field for class special abilities, add a "Bootstrap" to add a special ability to a class field,

At this point I step back and add a simple class ability at level one: Bulwark. Easy. I spend 2 hours going back and forth saving, compiling, testing, trying to get my ability shoe horned into the base class and eventually I figure it out. (I didn't write it down how I did it sadly :sad

. Eureka! I can do this!

Advanced Stuff:
I head back to the array section of the tutorial for more advanced class features where I can have a selection of talents available for the user to pick. Tutorial shows one section about special abilities primary,secondary, etc that I eventually figure out has been deprecated and rolled into the base class tab. I figure out how to add an ability so that at level 2,5,8 I get to pick and choose. Didn't write that down either :sad:.

Now, I try to add that list of abilities that are selected (no rules changes yet), and here is where I'm stone walled. The tutorial does not demonstrate an easy way to say "At level 2, select from this list and apply". Slugging through the editor I am unable to add that selectable ability to the primary list that is available as nowhere does it demonstrate how to do that with the new editor layout. The old one in on the tutorial pages shows how to do this but the layout is not the same and the selection tabs are the only thing in common.

At this point I've worked on this task for the better part of 5 hours and I'm frustrated and decide to start grilling and drinking a beer.

This morning I downloaded a spreadsheet and created the PC by hand: 30minutes said and done.

I love Hero Lab and realize how much effort it takes to create a class, this is a monumental task and whomever does this has the patience of a saint and the intellect of a Modron God. I on the other hand have some patience and tolerance and smarter than the average bear (polar bear, not a dire one).

I urge Lone Wolf to take another pass through their documentation, spend some time cleaning up the tutorial, and revamping the editor to streamline the process as much as possible. Content creation is king to providing long life for a product and more user interaction within the community. I'd love to give my armiger.user file back to the community for free and do more to help out, but I need to learn a new language in order to do this.

Thank you for taking your time to read this.

risner · April 15th, 2013, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leopold

1) Maybe the Tutorial will help! I head to the tutorial and check it out.

2) Blue vs. Tan: Frist thing I notice is that the background is blue instead of tan. Frist sign that this hasn't been updated in awhile.

3) This morning I downloaded a spreadsheet and created the PC by hand: 30minutes said and done.

1) The best tutorial is looking at other work that is similar. So pick a class (sounds like Rogue) and look at how it does what it does, then duplicate.

2) You are looking at D20 (blue) and Pathfinder (tan) didn't exist when the tutorial was created. Several menus will be different in Pathfinder.

3) Any time you do something very free form, it will be easier to do it on pen/paper or excel. If the classes/features you want are in Herolab is when it shines.

Umarian · April 15th, 2013, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by risner

1) The best tutorial is looking at other work that is similar. So pick a class (sounds like Rogue) and look at how it does what it does, then duplicate.

I couldn't agree more with this one. I have been getting into areas of the editor the past few months that I had never dealt with before, and can honestly say that most things I have done and learned have been from following the step above. Some things take a little longer to figure out, but it is pretty easy to get to that "AH HA!" moment where you figure out how things play together.

Occasionally, there are still things that make me scratch my head, but there is great support on the boards from LW, and the community, to help point people in the right direction when they get stuck.

chiefweasel · April 15th, 2013, 04:09 AM

This is useful because each game system is done differently, using different keywords and commands. So youre best bet for now is to use something similar within the same game system.

ShadowChemosh · April 15th, 2013, 10:14 AM

Its worth checking out the Glossary of terms that go over some of those "Generic" terms. As the editor is made to work with any game system the terms are very generic.

Also its worth checking out these 4 YouTube videos that help go over the editor and its use in writing a script.

The info that is in the articles are not really out of date. The info is still very good and worth reading. Do to the very nature of the complexity of the Pathfinder game system the Editor tries to cover Every Thing currently and in the future means its not something you learn in 5 minutes.

It will take time and patience to figure it out and make it work. Personally I am very impressed with the editor, the coding and the Standards that HL have in place. I work full time as a technical consultant at clients that have software packages that cost millions that do not have the standards that HL have.

I will say the same I have many times that you must give you self time to get familiar with the Editor and its terms. If you do this by reading the boards and the help it will get easier.

There is a HUGE post about a year+ ago that covers many of your same thoughts. Basically to allow the flexibility and power needed for Pathfinder the editor can not be made a whole lot easier. The easier you make something the less flexibility you actually have.

KiwiChris · April 15th, 2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by risner

1) The best tutorial is looking at other work that is similar. So pick a class (sounds like Rogue) and look at how it does what it does, then duplicate.

Agree with this however can't find where the Core Pathfinder data is stored :-(
I tried the {Explore Folders} options and could see any files the editor could open :-(
What should I be looking for?

many thanks

djc664 · April 15th, 2013, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by risner

1) The best tutorial is looking at other work that is similar. So pick a class (sounds like Rogue) and look at how it does what it does, then duplicate.

From a pragmatic use of the editor tool as it stands today, this is absolutely the answer. I've used it a lot.

And though I'm certain you don't mean it to, this answer reads SO elitist / snobbish and missing the point to me that my eyes burn a bit. I think because if you're to that point (how to get something to work the first time in), you're already frustrated by the whole deal anyway. The last thing you want to hear is "figure it out yourself".

To be fair, the Editor is specifically designed at bare minimum for experts in the product to enter content. Period. Anyone can use it too, though, which works for some... especially those with time to put in the trial and error along with a fair amount of advance knowledge of the game system. Since the start it's gotten much easier, but it's not really designed to enable true beginners to any game system as detailed as Pathfinder to make more than the most basic content.

I think the Original Poster is not talking about having an index of talents, skills, feats or whatever from a system in their head or being a talented programmer. The goal he's talking about is to get the editor and accompanying documentation to a space that is user-friendly for the non-expert (or non-hard-headed); we're talking about leading someone through the process.... step-by-step. Maybe even what you might call Baby-Steps. Yes, that small. That much hand-holding.

Making a consumer-purposed and super-low learning curve version of the editor, with documentation to match.

Maybe that's a Kickstarter Project in the making?

But honestly all, if your answer is "find something in 1000+ possible values" with a less-than-ideal searching interface that's somewhat like a concept you have in your head that may or may not be very well defined and expect someone to be able to go from there as a replacement for proper help resources...

Well that's a bit presumptuous for most users, don't you think?

ShadowChemosh · April 15th, 2013, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiwiChris

Agree with this however can't find where the Core Pathfinder data is stored :-(
I tried the {Explore Folders} options and could see any files the editor could open :-(
What should I be looking for?

many thanks

You do this by doing "New (Copy)" in the editor. The CORE stuff and all packages are encrypted and can only be accessed via the editor. My advice is to watch the 4 videos as I cover doing this in the tutorial and where to find all the fun values that are behind the scenes.

KiwiChris · 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

You do this by doing "New (Copy)" in the editor. The CORE stuff and all packages are encrypted and can only be accessed via the editor. My advice is to watch the 4 videos as I cover doing this in the tutorial and where to find all the fun values that are behind the scenes.

OK. Didn't think of that :-)
I have skimmed your videos and got some useful stuff, however will try looking closer.
EDIT: AWESOME!!!! New (Copy) is exactly what I wanted as I kind find a similar object and then edit to what I wanted :-) :-)
I had thought you could only copy a visible item (ie ones you had in the main list).

Also have you ever heard of anyone getting a error when trying to launch Tools/ Launch HLExport.
Only thing I can think of is that I an on Windows 7 64bit. Have had some other programs that have had a problem with this
Is there an error log somewhere?
Thanks!

ShadowChemosh · April 15th, 2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djc664

Well that's a bit presumptuous for most users, don't you think?

Wow I had to delete what I first wanted to say a few times.

I actually got into a rant about the education system in America and humans... Really it was breath taking to read.

We say the above about finding something similar and using it to start from as it really does work. I can point to numerous posts on this boards and people I have helped by simply pointing them to something that does a similar thing.

We have a very friendly community here willing to help. If you can't think of something just ask and I am sure someone can tell you some feat, trait, class ability or "Thing" that does something very close.

Is this is a perfect solution, no. I am I 100% sure that LW wants to make these things better, yes. Is making clear detailed documentation easy or quick, yea no. Those four videos I did was about a week+ in time. Getting software, learning the software, writing out a basic script, doing them, editing them, and in several cases redoing as the stupid software couldn't edit. Then look at the staff size at LW and the number of fires they have going.

Until then you have to have patience and go in knowing its going to take time. Start "small" and build up. Don't say I want to input these 20 base classes and I need them tomorrow! Their is allot that can be entered without scripting. Allot actually. Pick ONE class ability or ONE feat to script and work on it until its working 100%. Then pick the next one and each time it will get easier.

I had NO experience with HL before starting 2+ years ago. Now I can make HL do things that it was never expected to do.

But if you get upset and and frustrated then take a break and come back to it. I am sorry you will NOT pick this up over night especially if you no background in programming.

But look at Frodio who does all the Modern stuff. I am pretty sure he has mentioned before he is a retired fire-fighter with no previous computer experience. And now he builds WHOLE packages for the Modern Game system in the Editor. That is just AWESOME!!!!!