Is Hero Lab Online worth it?

[rob]

That said, hopefully they can find a way of doing a very generic "if this condition is checked, subtract this value from this other field" even if it means those simple adjustments won't check for contingencies.

Although, on the flip-side, such simple cases, to me, tend to be so simple that it's easier to just do the math myself than to wonder if the system is doing it right.

It's not just checking for contingencies. It's all the cascading implications. The classic examples is Barbarian Rage from PF1. Boosts to some attributes and minuses on other attributes have ripple effects throughout the character, sometimes in unexpected ways to the player. Those require the character to be fully reevaluated through the engine to properly reflect the effects everywhere.

If we're not going to things fully, then your second point about it probably being easier to just do yourself becomes reality. If we only do it partially, some users will find it "good enough" while others will decry us for doing an incomplete job. It's a no-win situation going down that path unless we can do it fully. And fully requires the engine to be utilized.

 

[rob]

Hmm, I think I've decided to hold off on renewing my subscription for now... The things I want - HLC style editor, offline mode, custom character sheets, integration with VTT - aren't available yet and might not be for a long time.

HLC and the apparently now abandoned PCGen were the only tools I can remember supporting flexible, custom content creation. We're bringing that to HLO via a different approach that isn't complete yet, but finding an alternative tool with that capability will be a very limiting requirement.

If offline mode is a sticking point, you absolutely got us there. Same with the custom character sheets that accompany an offline usage model. Much of the world is going online for everything, and that's the path we've chosen, too. But I understand that's not a path everyone embraces at this point.

Now that the rewrite is complete, integration with VTTs is not hard. However, it will require coordination with the VTT vendors like we did before. That required a lot of time to accomplish when we did it for HLC, and I expect it to be a similar effort with HLO. So I don't expect anything to happen quickly on that front, unless the VTT vendors are highly motivated to jump on it immediately.

With Campaign Theater as the tip of the spear, we're focused well beyond just an "interactive character sheet". The goal is to leverage the connectedness of the internet between the players and GM. Yes, we'll still be implementing all the standard character creation stuff (that's foundational to the product), but you'll be seeing a lot of new features centered on the gaming GROUP instead of the gaming individual in the months ahead.

 

[thaX]

Is there some sort of limit that prevents the App from putting the information of the character into the PDF of the Character Sheet, either from the book or your own creation at Lone Wolf?

The current print out is much improved, but still not what is needed for Offline Use, and the PFS info is still missing.

 

[Dragnmoon]

If offline mode is a sticking point, you absolutely got us there. Same with the custom character sheets that accompany an offline usage model. Much of the world is going online for everything, and that's the path we've chosen, too. But I understand that's not a path everyone embraces at this point.

I think part of the problem is part of your audience.

There are at least some of us that want to use this at conventions, and even now conventions have a tendency to have horrible or no wifi and be at locations with bad cell service due to being in the middle of a building.

Another situation is a lot of people are now playing not at home but at stores, and not all stores offer wifi or at least good wifi. I tried using the wifi at the location I play at but because it is so bad keeping connected to HLO was a problem. Luckily I have the data to use my cell as a hotspot there but not everyone has that luxury.

So far every convention I have been to that has been the case and it has been frustrating to try to get HLO to work in those situations.

Much of the world may be going online for everything I personally just don't think this type of program works as well there do to the situations your players can find themselves in.

So for me your company putting in the effort to build an app that can take the data from HLO and use it offline to keep track of the things I need to during a game is absolutely worth your time, so you telling me that is a lot of work my answer to that is to well get to it.

Edit: I would like to add that I would say for myself currently about 90% of my gaming I can use HLO, but that 10% is so frustrating . Others may have different percentages there.

 

[rob]

Is there some sort of limit that prevents the App from putting the information of the character into the PDF of the Character Sheet, either from the book or your own creation at Lone Wolf?

The current print out is much improved, but still not what is needed for Offline Use, and the PFS info is still missing.

Sorry, but I don't understand your question. What limits are you referring to?

Since character sheet output is a whole space of its own, I have created separate threads for each game system to solicit specific suggestions for what information everyone would like to see added, reorganized, etc.

The PFS information is definitely on our punch list and should be added relatively soon. It's just competing with a hundred other "priority" tasks. And the just-completed GMG was a TON of work that took much longer than we had anticipated.

 

[Dragnmoon]

Sorry, but I don't understand your question. What limits are you referring to?

Since character sheet output is a whole space of its own, I have created separate threads for each game system to solicit specific suggestions for what information everyone would like to see added, reorganized, etc.

The PFS information is definitely on our punch list and should be added relatively soon. It's just competing with a hundred other "priority" tasks. And the just-completed GMG was a TON of work that took much longer than we had anticipated.

Lol Already reported this but unsure if you guys are going to actually remove this, but please oh please remove this from every custom boon, it makes the printout way to long!..

PLEASE NOTE
This will allow you to create a new boon, and customize its
settings. Start by adding this boon.
Once you have added the boon, click on the Custom Boon item
that is created to open its details form. Then, go through the
settings and fill in the appropriate information - enter the name,
check whether it is currently slotted, set the boon slot type (or leave
this blank if it's an untyped boon, which is the case for many boons
added through scenarios), and if the boon has any traits, set those
in the trait drop-downs.
If this is a boon that has checkboxes, and changes its behavior as
more are checked, the next option will allow you to record how
many are currently checked. If this boon can only be used a
number of times in a day, or a number of times a scenario, or has
a limited number of uses before it is expended, select the time
period in "Usage Period" and then set the number in the next box.
For example, for a boon that can be used once per scenario, select
"/scenario" and set 1 use. For a boon that has three checkboxes,
requires a box to be checked each time it is used, and cannot be
used once the boxes are all checked, select "Used Up" as the
Usage Period, and 3 for the number of uses allowed. Or for a
boon that is single use, and expended once used, set "Used Up"
and 1 use.

 

[rob]

So for me your company putting in the effort to build an app that can take the data from HLO and use it offline to keep track of the things I need to during a game is absolutely worth your time, so you telling me that is a lot of work my answer to that is to well get to it.

If only it were that simple. To do what you're asking would basically entail a complete rewrite of the entire product, from the ground up, including the entire engine, to host it on a cross-platform toolkit (e.g. Unity). Alternately we could enlist an army of developers to write native apps on every platform so we can continue using the existing engine - and I'm pretty sure that approach wouldn't even work on some platforms. Both of those approaches would take millions of dollars of investment (ignoring the time involved), so they simply aren't viable options for a tiny outfit like us.

If you know someone who'd be interested in funding a different approach, please have them contact me. Otherwise, a web-based interface accessing the existing C++ engine hosted on compute-based servers is the model that we can reasonably achieve with the limited resources we have available.

 

[rob]

Lol Already reported this but unsure if you guys are going to actually remove this, but please oh please remove this from every custom boon, it makes the printout way to long!..

Yikes! I'll talk to the guys right away. That's ridiculous!

 

[Nightstar]

With what is going on in the world now, I really wish HLO would integrate with VTTs, like HLC does. Any chance this might become a higher priority now?

It'd be great if it did, or if PF2 and SF were brought to HLC. This, plus having the ability to sync HLC with HLO would be awesome. Create a character in one, be able to open it in the other.

 

[rob]

With what is going on in the world now, I really wish HLO would integrate with VTTs, like HLC does. Any chance this might become a higher priority now?

Yes, the priority got boosted, but we still have some other items that are well underway and have to completed before we switch gears like that. And there's also the need for the VTT side to import what we export once we get that all in place. So it's not gonna be anything immediate. But it will likely be done a good bit sooner than previously planned...

 

[Jamz]

Yes, the priority got boosted, but we still have some other items that are well underway and have to completed before we switch gears like that. And there's also the need for the VTT side to import what we export once we get that all in place. So it's not gonna be anything immediate. But it will likely be done a good bit sooner than previously planned...

MapTool is ready and waiting!

In fact, in our macro scripting language we already support full REST so if you expose some basic API endpoints for us to consume, the *users* can start consuming your content right away! Note, I said *users* which means, technically, there is no coding required from the core MapTool team, but rather framework writers (depending on the system, ie PF2, SF, or SR) AND hopefully the format will be a nice JSON which is easy to consume. We support JsonPath so getting fields from complicated objects is a bit easier. If we can start with some simple character info like combat stats would be great.

I'd love to see some end points that we could also call to turn on conditions and adjust HP from the VTT side.

Lets do this!

(maybe we could have a separate forum channel or discord or something to discuss going forward?)

 

[magpi]

@Jamz, as a guy who recently started using MapTool (and loves it! I used Roll20 forever but will never go back), this is exciting!

 

[Jamz]

@Magpi great to hear! We've been pretty active lately with some new developer contributions so lots of new stuff coming down the line!

 

[yanko128]

Reading this thread sold me on HLO. Once my group plays a game it supports, I will pay for the license.

 

[Nightstar]

In other words, you want us to rewrite 70% of the application using a different platform model. Unfortunately, that isn't a viable option for the exact same reasons I already outlined earlier in this thread.

Yes, I think a lot of people do want this. I've been browsing other forums, such as Paizo, and the number of threads complaining about the lack of customization and the need to be online 24/7 to use HLO is rather frequent when looking for Hero Lab posts. As is the lamentations of HLC not supporting PF2 and SF. So many people on other forums and people I've talked to in person, have echoed these same complaints, just as they have in this thread.

And many of these people claim they can't support HL any longer... Many, like myself, have spent hundreds on HLC and used it extensively for years. I guess maybe it sort of feels like a slap in the face for the old users that loved and supported HLC, but can no longer use it if they want to play PF2 or SF. Hell, I would spend hours everyday with the editor, adding custom content like the Genius Guide to Death Knights. Can I do that in HLO? NO.

Maybe I'm just getting old, or don't play on groups where people use their laptops/phones for everything at the game table... Perhaps I'm a tabletop dinosaur, like many others I've seen on the forums, and we should be ignored because we're not the future. But I would wager that if you brought PF2 and SF to HLC, you would see a jump in sells. Especially if HLO and HLC could be linked.

But that's just my two copper from a gaming dinosaur...

 

[Nightstar]

There is nothing I'm aware of that HLC can possibly do in terms of features that HLO cannot, with the exception of some items that are already planned to be added to HLO. However, the reverse absolutely true. There are many things that the connectedness of HLO allows us to do that simply aren't realistic within HLC. The Campaign Theater features we just introduced are merely the tip of the iceberg for that.

As for bringing games from HLO to HLC, it's theoretically possible. However, it would require a major reallocation of resources away from HLO to accomplish that. If we could afford a larger team, then we'd potentially be able to do something like that, but I don't see it as realistic in the near term, at least.

HLO can't add custom classes, among other things. And HLO to HLC should be, along with VTT integration, Top priorities.

But really, is anything going to change on what is said here? Doubtful... The criticisms are dismissed too quickly to show any plan to reevaluate the course of HLO.

 

[Duggan]

I don't think we're being ignored (I'm a proud HLC user myself) so much as that Rob is being clear that Lone Wolf has to transition in another direction, and that they can't afford to pay people to adapt the system one direction or the other. It is unfortunate, but not malicious.

 

[Toblakai]

Yes, I think a lot of people do want this. I've been browsing other forums, such as Paizo, and the number of threads complaining about the lack of customization and the need to be online 24/7 to use HLO is rather frequent when looking for Hero Lab posts. As is the lamentations of HLC not supporting PF2 and SF. So many people on other forums and people I've talked to in person, have echoed these same complaints, just as they have in this thread.

I'm no sure this is totally accurate, when seeing these posts on Paizo it seems to be the same 6 people or so. Character generators are not a high demand app, so LWD has to pick where the limited resources go, and an online model is really the best option for device coverage and future proofing.

 

[Nightstar]

Eh, it's more than the same six guys, over the past 3 years... But maybe I'm just disgruntled.

 

[thaX]

To be fair, the program of HLC does have some limitations that had work arounds, such as splitting some feats to what choices the character would choose.

It isn't to the point where Etools was when it was yanked out of that company's hands, but if PF1 would have continued with added classes and weird mechanics (like the kineticist), HLC would eventually have to evolve to handle it.

The new App (HLO) is different, with a slightly different purpose and more interactive than the program. The Campaign Theater is a lofty and useful tool, but limited to those that are the game masters for the most part. To that end, though, I believe the product overall will surpass the program's original limitations and have a better and faster interaction once PF1 and other systems migrate to it's domain. The active nature of the character in play is better evolved than the In Play tab in the program, and the App is being improved more and more.

Overall, the App is still not on par with the original Program, but it is improved to a point that I myself am thinking about a purchase. I doubt we get user content in the same manor as the program, as the App is on a server somewhere and not really available for the user to define. My thought is that some sort of User Adjustments could be implemented in some way, but the nature of the App limits how it could be done.

The best example is The World is Square rules adjustment change regarding the Feat Tax elimination. Would it need to be a separate user created (Free) license, or adjusted somehow for each character that would use it? When PF1 is brought over, will there be a way for this to be a choice for the character from user input? This is the quandary and the App needs to keep this content separate from the actual set content on the server as these adjustments are made for the characters. I doubt that this was an overwhelming concern when the choice was made to go Online, with the App being more than the simply character creation aid and tracker.