Is Hero Lab Online worth it?

[flyteach]

The number of lines of code is irrelevant. Unless you have some proof that cross platform apps are small. And, if the only lone viable solution is to remain connected to the internet 24/7, then that is a sad state of affairs.

 

[rob]

Now you mentioned things that Hero Lab Online won't be able to handle from the GMG... Do you think Hero Lab Classic could handle those issues? My dream would be for PF2 and SF to come to Classic, and integrate with Online. Say, you create a character in Classic, but can open it in Online and make changes, etc. Any chance of that?

There is nothing I'm aware of that HLC can possibly do in terms of features that HLO cannot, with the exception of some items that are already planned to be added to HLO. However, the reverse absolutely true. There are many things that the connectedness of HLO allows us to do that simply aren't realistic within HLC. The Campaign Theater features we just introduced are merely the tip of the iceberg for that.

As for bringing games from HLO to HLC, it's theoretically possible. However, it would require a major reallocation of resources away from HLO to accomplish that. If we could afford a larger team, then we'd potentially be able to do something like that, but I don't see it as realistic in the near term, at least.

And how does the future look with integrating Online with a VTT, like Fantasy Grounds? That is a feature I sorely miss.

Now that the rewrite of everything is behind us, this is something that could potentially again be possible. It would require a chunk of time to instrument it all, but it's doable on our end. I haven't spoken with Doug in quite some time, and FG would also have to allocate the necessary resources on their end to import what we export. So it's a big question mark right now, and I don't envision having the bandwidth to actively pursue something like that until at least next month. That said, if you want to explore FG's interest from a consumer standpoint, feel free to do so.

 

[rob]

The number of lines of code is irrelevant. Unless you have some proof that cross platform apps are small. And, if the only lone viable solution is to remain connected to the internet 24/7, then that is a sad state of affairs.

The number of lines of code is fundamental to the situation. It's the Hero Lab ENGINE. Without the engine, there is no product. So either we need to rewrite that engine on a new platform or we need a platform model that can accommodate the existing engine. Given the size and complexity of the engine, and given that it performs extremely well in its current state, that pretty much dictates we adopt a platform where we can leverage the engine we've already got.

I said absolutely nothing about cross-platform apps being small. You apparently just made that up. Please don't ascribe comments to me that I never said. There are massive apps written to be cross-platform. Those apps were written using toolkits other than C++ and would likely be where we focused if we were going to rewrite the engine. But we're not doing that, since it would require a huge amount of time and serve no useful purpose.

The internet is the future. 24/7 connectedness is the norm and becoming more ubiquitous every month. Is it everywhere yet? Nope. But that connectedness is a cornerstone of role-playing games. So we've embraced that. Given situations like the current coronavirus outbreak, that connectedness is even more critical, since many are reluctant to game in person for the time being. I'm sorry you feel our adoption of the internet is a sad state of affairs, but it's the path we've chosen to go down.

 

[alientude]

There is nothing I'm aware of that HLC can possibly do in terms of features that HLO cannot, with the exception of some items that are already planned to be added to HLO.

The ability to create and modify characters without Internet.

 

[Shadowfoot]

The ability to create and modify characters without Internet.

This was a smart-alec answer.
HLC required the internet to download the application and the data files.

 

[alientude]

It requires a one-time connection to the Internet to set it up initially. After that, you can use it 100% offline. That's a huge feature that HLO can never support. Call it a smart-alec answer all you want, it's the simple truth and it shouldn't be glossed over as if HLC is inherently inferior in all ways.

 

[rob]

Whoa! Calm down, folks!

That's a fair statement that HLC can operate offline and HLO cannot. I didn't consider that when I was thinking about features in my post above.

I wasn't intentionally glossing over it. I just didn't think of it. And it's not that HLC is somehow "inferior". It's just that the connectedness of HLO allows us to do so much that we could not do before. And I'm excited about those prospects and being able to bring some really cool features to HLO.

 

[Toblakai]

The internet is the future. 24/7 connectedness is the norm and becoming more ubiquitous every month. Is it everywhere yet? Nope.

Give SpaceX starlink another year or two and high speed connectedness will be everywhere.

 

[thaX]

With all that you said, Rob, I would hope that Offline Use would be a feature for use for the platform, if only as a character sheet reader type stasis. There are areas and places where connectivity is not available or is charged for or sketchy. (Gen Con for example) There needs to be some way to access characters and have them available without an online sign in or a good print out (which has improved but needs more info and better formatting) of the character for one to use.

 

[rob]

With all that you said, Rob, I would hope that Offline Use would be a feature for use for the platform, if only as a character sheet reader type stasis.

This is definitely part of the roadmap. And it's a pretty high priority item on that roadmap. The critical caveat is that it will be as a VIEWER and not allow modifications that need to go through the server (which is everything now, but we'd like to make things like HP and the like able to be adjusted while offline).

 

[Dragnmoon]

This is definitely part of the roadmap. And it's a pretty high priority item on that roadmap. The critical caveat is that it will be as a VIEWER and not allow modifications that need to go through the server (which is everything now, but we'd like to make things like HP and the like able to be adjusted while offline).

I am wondering if it will allow to apply effects/traits/turn things on off/condition..

So if the the wizard casts a buff spell can I apply that spell in offline mode?

If my character gets flat footed, can I apply that condition?

 

[rob]

I am wondering if it will allow to apply effects/traits/turn things on off/condition..

So if the the wizard casts a buff spell can I apply that spell in offline mode?

If my character gets flat footed, can I apply that condition?

Buffs and whatnot have cascading impact on the character, which requires it go through the engine (on the server) to apply all those cascading effects. Consequently, the best we could do is allow you to just flag that it's on. All calculations would have to be done locally by the user, just like with a printed character sheet.

 

[magpi]

Buffs and whatnot have cascading impact on the character, which requires it go through the engine (on the server) to apply all those cascading effects. Consequently, the best we could do is allow you to just flag that it's on. All calculations would have to be done locally by the user, just like with a printed character sheet.

Rob, I am not crazy about that, but I understand the limitation. At the very least, being able to run a 'simple' combat, ie Player A stabs Goblin 1 who loses X health, would be pretty good as a start.

For myself at the least, and maybe others, the biggest gap between HLC and HLO is the lack of custom content. While we do have some custom stuff now (weapons, armor, feats, races, et cetera) most of these tend to need other adjustments in the adjustments tab. In particular, being able to somehow save my weapons/armor that I created for my characters would be great. In addition, being able to get some of the adjustments back that were present in the Playtest and in Starfinder would be great, chiefly being able to directly adjust the number of selections allowed in table, most especially feats.

Just as a side note, I was one of the people who was pretty skeptical of HLO coming from HLC for years, but more and more I see you all improving and adding new stuff. I am very excited to see where HLO keeps going, while it has it's flaws, it is quickly becoming a really great tool to make my life as a forever GM easier!

 

[rob]

For myself at the least, and maybe others, the biggest gap between HLC and HLO is the lack of custom content. While we do have some custom stuff now (weapons, armor, feats, races, et cetera) most of these tend to need other adjustments in the adjustments tab. In particular, being able to somehow save my weapons/armor that I created for my characters would be great. In addition, being able to get some of the adjustments back that were present in the Playtest and in Starfinder would be great, chiefly being able to directly adjust the number of selections allowed in table, most especially feats.

The custom stuff we have now needs to be expanded upon. The goal is to have a wide assortment of abilities/effects that can be chosen from and assembled to make whatever custom item you want. We've started down that path, but we still have more work to do. Ideally, the vast majority of those abilities/effects will have the associated logic baked into them, which avoids the need to apply lots of adjustments. The only time manual adjustments should be needed is when the effect doesn't exist in the library of premade stuff we provide.

Sharing your creations with the players is absolutely something we'll be addressing soon. I can't go into details yet, but there's what I think is a very cool feature coming up in the next couple months.

HLC's editor makes it possible for users to add whatever they want. Unfortunately, that's a huge can of worms in a shared web environment, so we haven't ventured there yet. It's not just a matter of all the complications of supporting full editing. It's also the fact that we have to lock things down to guarantee users can't negatively impact the performance of the shared resource for others. It would be trivial today to simply write a three-line script that goes into an infinite loop, and there are a zillion different ways users could inadvertently (or intentionally) get themselves into a situation where everyone else is screwed. Until we can fully safeguard against that, full-blown editing is a non-starter. Is it something I'd love to support? Heck yeah! Is it realistic in the near term? Sadly, no.

I wasn't aware that there were adjustments in the Playtest that are not present now. And the list of adjustments is ripe for additions. If there are particular ones you think are most important, let us know for when we prioritize this stuff.

Just as a side note, I was one of the people who was pretty skeptical of HLO coming from HLC for years, but more and more I see you all improving and adding new stuff. I am very excited to see where HLO keeps going, while it has it's flaws, it is quickly becoming a really great tool to make my life as a forever GM easier!

Thanks! We're working hard to make it a great tool, and things are finally starting to come together in that regard.

 

[Dragnmoon]

Buffs and whatnot have cascading impact on the character, which requires it go through the engine (on the server) to apply all those cascading effects. Consequently, the best we could do is allow you to just flag that it's on. All calculations would have to be done locally by the user, just like with a printed character sheet.

That makes the offline mode significantly less useful and really no different then just printing it out. I am not even sure what is the point of putting any effort in it then. How is that any different then me opening up a PDF of the character sheet?

I was hoping for something more inline with the Herolabs app on iPad.

A separate program that can read the data and do the things you need to do while playing a game.

 

[rob]

That makes the offline mode significantly less useful and really no different then just printing it out. I am not even sure what is the point of putting any effort in it then. How is that any different then me opening up a PDF of the character sheet?

Everything is in the same, familiar place. Adaptive layout to different screen sizes. Ability to view the details of each feat/ability/item/weapon/etc. Various other conveniences that aren't afforded by a PDF character sheet.

I was hoping for something more inline with the Herolabs app on iPad.

A separate program that can read the data and do the things you need to do while playing a game.

In other words, you want us to rewrite 70% of the application using a different platform model. Unfortunately, that isn't a viable option for the exact same reasons I already outlined earlier in this thread.

 

[Dragnmoon]

To me it still sounds like a waste of resources. Your description may be poor, but I can do all those things on a PDF other then layout of screen sizes. It seems it's main point is for phones.

I will have to rethink my subscription because I was hoping for those abilities on off line mode. After going to a convention with poor cell service and no wifi your program was totally useless and the offline mode will not do what I need it to do.

I have to decide for myself if the program is worth it as just a character generator. Especially with the higher costs then you had with the HeroLabs Classic Model.

 

[WatersLethe]

If HLO could output a fillable PDF with some auto-calculator functions, that itself could be a huge deal. Especially if it was better laid out than the current sheet.

 

[Duggan]

As someone who has messed with using the Authoring Kit to implement systems, I empathize with Rob's position. There are a lot of interconnected parts, and it's difficult to mark some of them to apply to an offline sheet without giving away the whole farm. That said, hopefully they can find a way of doing a very generic "if this condition is checked, subtract this value from this other field" even if it means those simple adjustments won't check for contingencies.

Although, on the flip-side, such simple cases, to me, tend to be so simple that it's easier to just do the math myself than to wonder if the system is doing it right.

 

[Nightstar]

Hmm, I think I've decided to hold off on renewing my subscription for now... The things I want - HLC style editor, offline mode, custom character sheets, integration with VTT - aren't available yet and might not be for a long time.

I really have less of a desire for an interactive character sheet I can use while gaming, and want more of a character builder that I can use my own house rules with, make sure I've added all modifiers correctly, does the math for me, and can import into a VTT so I don't have to reenter the character from scratch (aka everything HLC did, just with an added app like Apple users had access to).

Until HLO can do this, I don't see the need for it in my gaming life. I appreciate all the work that has gone into HLO, and how Rob is personally interacting with us:that shows a dedication to the fan base. It just feels HLO is going a different direction (virtual online character sheet) than what I want.