Any recent updates on the progress of Content Market

[ErinRigh]

I didn't kickstart RW, I hadn't even heard of it when I came to it. I got HL at the recommendation of someone on the Fantasy Grounds forums. I was so impressed at its functionality over e-tools (which I was stubbornly still using) that I bought 2 copies before realizing I could get a second licence, and went looking for other software by LWD to make my life easier. I downloaded Army Builder for minis games and looked at the promos for Realm Works because 50 dollars American is a big investment for me. I showed the promos to my wife who was just as impressed and bought me a copy for my once around the sun day, back in October. It has been 9 months and my wife complains that I spend all my time updating and tweaking and inputting one of the 15 Realms I have created, and I applied to the Grey Council.

My point is, I didn't back this program, I wish I had known because I'd have been an Alpha Wolf backer, just based on the programs current functionality. I didn't get the program based on what it might do, but rather on what it DOES do. When I got it, it didn't have Import/Export and I only made a couple of realms because I had to input each individually, but I bought it KNOWING it didn't have that function.

If you did back this program on KS, kudos. The program ALREADY does more than anything like it (is there even anything like it?) and is complex enough that unless you are one of the small few on here that REALLY get it, there is probably a TON of functions unused.

However, backing on KS does not ENTITLE you to ANYTHING!

When you back on KS, you are investing in the stock that is Realm Works. If the marketeer fails to deliver on time, the stock value drops. The stock that you invested in is now worth less. If the market crashes (The program flops and LWD pulls the plug), they owe you NOTHING! You took your chances with the market and you didn't get the return you wanted, but you DID get a return.

The fact is, with all the things this program comes with, including (currently) free backup service (I hesitate to use the word cloud), it is worth the money you invested, and if you invested too much money, too bad, live and learn, we all get taken by the market now and again and you still have a GREAT program.

The moral of my story is don't buy promises. If you buy based on speculations, you deserve what you get. You invest based on speculations, and never invest more than you are prepared to lose outright. If you buy, buy it for what it is not what it could be, or I have a few foals I can sell you at very high prices that MIGHT be prize winning race horses someday.

just my 2 cp

BTW, thanks LW Staff I know you are doing your best and are just as frustrated by these delays as we are.

Erin

 

[BJ]

Beeing in the same situation as Dervish, I really understand your and the devs need for the content market, BJ. I argued that way more than once.

But, like many others around this forum, I beg to differ on a very important point:



One of your most important assets are we, the users and customers. Sounds strange and slightly presumptous, I know. But the users, especially those lurking around various forums and the FB group, not only pay for your products. We are an important means of promotion also. If we are satisfied, we talk to others about it. If not, well, we do the same. If we can understand your problems and delays, will tell others also.



Yes, we know, and we are gratefull for it, since we all want RW to succeed and get all the features (like custom calendars and individual reveal) we are all excitedly waiting for.
But - speaking as someone with some experience in PR - we need to know it on a different level.
Therefore I have to agree with Merion, the major problem is the communication.

The issue with weekly updating is if we have something we are working on and that goes sideways and we've spoken about it, people will be upset if we can't accomplish it. If we give a date and we miss it people will be upset that we missed it. If we say soon fully 100% believing that it will be soon and soon doesn't come, people will be upset. So the updates don't work any better than keeping silent. All we can really relay at this point is we are working as hard as we can to accomplish everything everyone wants. Releasing a string of paragraphs about some broken code that needs fixed or written before security will work properly or some such isn't all that helpful and just takes away dev time as someone from the dev team has to come and explain it and then likely sink hours into follow up questions about it, all of which delays the release even more.

When we have big news, or even small but important news, you'll absolutely be seeing it! But giving tech updates before the work is finished is just guess work and that doesn't serve anyone well. At this point I can't even envision Gen Con coming and going before we see the content market but I can't guarantee that something won't go sideways on some security issue or a major bug won't crop up. All any of us can do at this point is wait and use the amazing tool that we have already, as it is, to make something fantastic of our own.

 

[BJ]

One of the most frustrating parts of the world of software development is the cry of all the users saying "give us updates!" As a developer, it doesn't matter how much you communicate, everyone wants more/different/less/other information. Daily updates to anyone not directly involved in a project is a joke, and even sprint updates to those not invested is a waste. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. I'm stoked to already have the things that I have from RW, and I'll wait until the rest gets done. I KS'd an awesome project that has made my DM'ing life so much better than it was, and I thank you.

So glad you're enjoying RW, thank you!

 

[Tharmiones]

However, backing on KS does not ENTITLE you to ANYTHING!

I've read this sooo often and people keep repeating it over and over again and yet it is still WRONG.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

How Projects Work

Most of our Terms of Use explain your relationship with Kickstarter. This section is different — it explains the relationship between creators and backers of Kickstarter projects, and who’s responsible for what. This is what you’re agreeing to when you create or back a Kickstarter project.
Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.

Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.

Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.

If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project.
If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.

So it is quite obvious that I as a back do have the right to request that they do fulfill their part of the contract, which is at foremost that they do deliver the product they offered and as well but not limited to: Honest communication!
That's what LWD has agreed on by doing the KS in the first place.

Yes I do have to accept delays or changes in content or planned behavior BUT I think we KS people have done a good job in keeping our part of the contract by waiting for something four long years AFTER the planned delivery date and accepting that priorities within the project have changed, certain features have been delayed and so on. We have been very true to our part because we are STILL here and not taking legal actions. At least speaking for myself I've never even thought about that anyway.

So what we are asking for is just that LWD does hold true to their part of the agreement as well which DOES actually include "regular, insightful, and honest updates".
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/updates


So please stop spreading false information that we are not entitled to anything.

 

[Ambush]

I've read this sooo often and people keep repeating it over and over again and yet it is still WRONG.

***pointless content cut***

So what we are asking for is just that LWD does hold true to their part of the agreement as well which DOES actually include "regular, insightful, and honest updates".
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/updates


So please stop spreading false information that we are not entitled to anything.

While you are complaining about misinformation, you should stop spreading it. The quote out of context is:

"Backers appreciate regular, insightful, and honest updates. Don’t be hesitant to communicate delays or changes to your original plans — or to just check in. (If backers don’t hear from you for a while, they worry that you may be having trouble doing the work you promised.)"

They are *not* obligated to update you every time they check in code. I would be really interested to know what part of their obligation you don't believe they are upholding?

 

[ErinRigh]

We have been very true to our part because we are STILL here and not taking legal actions. At least speaking for myself I've never even thought about that anyway.

So what we are asking for is just that LWD does hold true to their part of the agreement as well which DOES actually include "regular, insightful, and honest updates".

So please stop spreading false information that we are not entitled to anything.

Well aren't you a special snowflake. I guess you ARE entitled to something according to that. You are entitled to seek legal action if you feel you've been defrauded. So instead of whining that they didn't fulfill their end of the agreement, ask for a refund, sue them, or shut the hell up. You are not entitled to subject the rest of us to your ceaseless (not speaking of you but the general "you") complaining at every chance that they didn't give you your stuff.

 

[BJ]

Alright folks, this is heading toward getting out of hand, let's take a deep breath and think before posting. Please play nice and try to be civil to one another or we'll be facing time outs from the playground.

 

[Bidmaron]

Hey, BJ, I must respectfully disagree about your update point. The one thing periodic updates will do is give us a sense of progress during the times when the silence is kind of unbearable around here. Just a periodic post of what you accomplished as technical or non-technical as you wish. No promise of where you are going, just a summary of what was done. You should try it; it should garner you a lot more good will. Yes, there will be those who press you for dates and features, but you just state up front that the thread is only progress reports.

Why not give it go?

 

[Parody]

I've read this sooo often and people keep repeating it over and over again and yet it is still WRONG.

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use

Note that the quoted terms of use were not the ones in effect at the time the Realm Works Kickstarter began and thus do not apply to this particular Kickstarter project. Those are linked at the bottom of the KS Terms of Use page: Kickstarter Terms of Use for projects started before October 18th, 2014.

Regardless, Realm Works has changed many times since the Kickstarter and I doubt it will ever match up perfectly with any individual's perception of what they thought was going to come out of the project. It is what it is, and what remains for KS backers is some content and some amount of cloud service.

 

[wurzel]

In my professional life I saw besides some really good projects also too many projects that failed. Investigation to identify the root cause for failures was always leading to the same result: insufficient or wrong communication.
If there is a technical difficulty, it is not necessarily a problem if you tell your boss/client/customer about it and the way you are going to handle it, with the impact this difficulty is going to have on your project plan and the costs.

I simply can't understand why it is so difficult/impossible for LWD to give short regular updates.
It does not necessarily have to be very detailed on a technical level. Therefore the statements don't have to be written by developers. Something like "we discovered that the current database structure makes it impossible to implement this necessary feature so we will have to redesign the structure and change a lot of code. It will take at least some weeks to finish that." could be discussed at lunchtime with the marketing person who then generates this short update, and the crowd has some eagerly awaited info to keep them quiet for a while longer.

 

[Acenoid]

Actually I think it would be better to communicate what has been done. And I think LWD is doing that whenever a release (something new) is about to be presented.

So basically the oingoing news is:
-> LWD Developers are focussing on the upcoming RW release which aims towards the release of the content market.

And this news does not change until we hear otherwise or it's released.

Whenever a release comes up, ppl may read about it's contents in the release notes.

I think the information provided is sufficient.
What would be good however, if LWD provides extra information if for example the next release would be delayed.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

People would quickly get tired of a short weekly update that was always some variant of "We're all still working on it, and we'll let you know when it's ready."

 

[ErinRigh]

People would quickly get tired of a short weekly update that was always some variant of "We're all still working on it, and we'll let you know when it's ready."

I think that is what BJ is saying. Since that is all they have to report it would be a waste of time.

 

[Viking2054]

But a report on what is going on once every month or two would be welcome. A three month wait might be a little long, but I could handle that if necessary.

 

[BJ]

I've pretty well told you all we have to share. We are working on getting the security measures in place, there have been some snags along the way, and we plan to have it out before Gen Con. Please remember that every time we push an update out the release notes show the items we finished as well. As I've said, if I had anything significant to report I'd share it. Promise!

 

[meek75]

So, this conversation is quickly becoming less than helpful so I hesitate to chime in again. I have been increasingly critical of LWD and am no longer recommending them to my friends with the same enthusiasm I once was. However, I get that they are in a lose-lose scenario when it comes to updates. BJ makes a great point about the update progress being in the release notes. What I do think they should do is give an update when they miss an estimated delivery date. The last ETA we blew past (there have been so many at this point I lost count) was Piazo Con. It came and went with no word from LWD. That has been the way of it all along. If they make a prediction and can't make it happen an update is then in order. We now know that security issues are the hold up. It would have been nice to know before Piazo Con that CM wasn't going to be ready due to security issues. I also get that if they do that they will get a flurry of critical responses. To be honest, at this point they deserve some criticism and just have to accept it. I don't know if they can ever regain my trust and goodwill, but I still think RW is a good product with the potential for greatness.

 

[SteveT]

Hey all, BJ asked me to check this out to share some more info... I haven't had time to read this entire thread as I've been buried in trying to get my part of the CM out, but I can see that some people are understandably restless. There are people working on many different aspects of the Content Market, so I can't speak directly for everybody, but I can share a bit about what my team has been working on.

For the past few months my team has been working on developing and testing a bunch of the server infrastructure we need to support the Content Market.

This means supporting things like letting people log into our servers, link their accounts with their Paizo account, and buy content. It also means supporting securing the content files to people's individual accounts and letting them download them.

In addition, it means supporting the administrative capabilities we need to administer our online store (stuff doesn't just appear in the store on its own ).

We initially underestimated the amount of time and effort some of this would require, including the security measures we need to have. Basically, we've been making a lot of progress on all this, and have been deploying our progress to our servers every few weeks, its just that a lot of it is not quite user visible yet.

 

[BJ]

Thanks Steve!

 

[stuartwaring]

Hey all, BJ asked me to check this out to share some more info... I haven't had time to read this entire thread as I've been buried in trying to get my part of the CM out, but I can see that some people are understandably restless. There are people working on many different aspects of the Content Market, so I can't speak directly for everybody, but I can share a bit about what my team has been working on.

For the past few months my team has been working on developing and testing a bunch of the server infrastructure we need to support the Content Market.

This means supporting things like letting people log into our servers, link their accounts with their Paizo account, and buy content. It also means supporting securing the content files to people's individual accounts and letting them download them.

In addition, it means supporting the administrative capabilities we need to administer our online store (stuff doesn't just appear in the store on its own ).

We initially underestimated the amount of time and effort some of this would require, including the security measures we need to have. Basically, we've been making a lot of progress on all this, and have been deploying our progress to our servers every few weeks, its just that a lot of it is not quite user visible yet.

This is exactly the kind of thing I think people where looking for. Certainly it ratchets down my frustration several levels!

A once a month update of this manner would probably go a long way to keeping people's frustrations in check.

Thanks to BJ for organizing this, and for Steve for taking time to provide the update.

 

[Bidmaron]

Yes, this is all we need, a short progress report. Just because the CM isn't ready doesn't mean you aren't progressing.

Thanks a million!