What's the Delay?

[llothos]

AGREED! isnt that the point of patches?

most definitely it is the point of patches but also if they release a product that "isn't ready" then peoples perceptions of the product could be that it's bad and won't recommend it to others also in turn giving lone wolf a bad rep for releasing poor product (we all know differently of course ). Sure they will patch in the fixes but it's the initial release that often gets critiqued the most.

You see that a lot in games being released too early and not enough polish but end up fixing with future patches, but it's not the patched version that gets reviews it's the initial release. The product could be awesome after the patches come out but that doesn't help them initially when people look up the game/product and it got poor reviews due to some glaring bugs (that could very well be fixed now).

Early access... People will pay money to gain early access to a product with the realization that it's a alpha/beta release and they have input in the development cycle (and they get to use the product). Yes this may not be really new but you see it way more often then say a few years ago.

 

[Chemlak]

Software release is a tricky business. There are basically three types of release:

1) Buggy as all hell, out on time.
2) Good enough, some delays.
3) Good, lots of delays.

LWD strive to fall somewhere between 2 & 3 - they want the software to be good. They want it to function, be easy to use, and to do everything it promises to do. But they're also aware that people are champing at the bit to get their hands on this product. So they have to prioritise. They have to make it at least 'good enough', because their company name and brand are built on making quality products. All of which means there's a certain amount of pressure on them to get it out the door, because they know that people are going to buy it, and what company doesn't want an influx of cash from a new product?

Fortunately for us as users, LWD have the balls to take the heat and delay release if the product doesn't meet their quality control standards. If it's not 'good enough'. And I respect them for that.

Now, I may be biased, since I'm an Early Access user of RW, and I have the product right now, and I can use it, and damned if I don't absolutely love it (well worth the price of admission), so I don't have to wait for official release to use it, but I like the fact that as independent developers they aren't under pressure from some corporate overlords who insist on releasing software that the developers don't think is ready for the public. It's pretty straightforward, really, and boils down to the following statement:

"If you buy an application from Lone Wolf Development, it will be good software. It may need updates and patches, but you won't be buying something you need to patch on day 2. They're going to do it right."

I'll happily suffer a delay of a few days if it means I'm going to get a product with that sort of attention to detail in it.

 

[Indigojones]

Chemlak.... this saddens me. you are using the product... you aren't waiting, saying that you are willing to wait for a product that you already have is completely backwards. Those who aren't aware of what they are "missing" know they have campaigns going and they want or need some sort of digital serves that allows them to better organize them self and not having a release date STILL causes me to loose what faith i have in the company because they are unable to properly manager their time correctly to get what they need done when they say it is going to be done.

so what am i left to do... wait for something that may or may not be amazing or go out and use or get something else.... i believe the saying is "one in the hand is worth more then two in the bush".

As for the 3 steps on buggy as hell and great with a lot of delay... there are a ton of company out there that are able to make products on time that are amazing. and the majority of games that are delayed end up falling flat because the delays are a good sign of large problems...

on top of that look at GTA V which came out sold largely and then has been slowly releasing the online features. if the product is so great as you say why isn't something like that being worked out?

 

[liz]

Chemlak.... this saddens me. you are using the product... you aren't waiting, saying that you are willing to wait for a product that you already have is completely backwards. Those who aren't aware of what they are "missing" know they have campaigns going and they want or need some sort of digital serves that allows them to better organize them self and not having a release date STILL causes me to loose what faith i have in the company because they are unable to properly manager their time correctly to get what they need done when they say it is going to be done.

I can definitely understand your frustrations. It's been super frustrating for us too that we've had to continue to push back our projections. When it comes down to it, Realm Works is breaking new ground in software development, and not just with software for RPG tools. Unfortunately, that means issues come up that can take the team by surprise and set back the timeline. Were we to release Realm Works right now, or even a week from now, it would not meet the quality standard our customers deserve. When I say quality, I don't mean bugs or polish, I mean a product that is easy to use and meets the needs of GMs. While it's almost there, it's not there quite yet.

on top of that look at GTA V which came out sold largely and then has been slowly releasing the online features. if the product is so great as you say why isn't something like that being worked out?

I think the biggest difference between this and Realm Works is that Realm Works isn't delayed because of additional features, it's delayed because right now it's core features do not meet our standards for release. We have many additional features that will be added after V1.0, similar to the example you provided.

I think Rob said it best in his Kickstarter update, so I'm going to borrow shamelessly from him: "Realm Works keeps getting better with each passing week, and we're in the home stretch. I realize the delays are frustrating to everyone – please realize that they're incredibly frustrating for us, too. The thing to remember is that, if this was easy, somebody else would have done this long ago. It's a very complex beast that we've tackled, and we've got it 97% tamed"

More details about our current projection will be out in our usual monthly newsletter, which should be out next week. If you specific concerns or questions, do not hesitate to PM me!

 

[Indigojones]

There needs to be a like button or something in the forum. liz you have again stopped me in my tracks.
i do have one question... is there one location where i can read the updates as well as see any additional video or photo's or any sort of media about the program as it keeps getting updated. i know there is a twitter and a fb. but i just wanted to know if there is one spot that has the most amount of information....

 

[liz]

is there one location where i can read the updates as well as see any additional video or photo's or any sort of media about the program as it keeps getting updated. i know there is a twitter and a fb. but i just wanted to know if there is one spot that has the most amount of information....

Great question! Right now most of our updates are going through our social media accounts and our newsletter. We are actually in the process of completely redoing the website too. Once the website is unveiled in the beginning of November, we hope most people will gravitate towards the shiny new website for all things Realm Works.

 

[Chemlak]

Indigo - I get what you read of my response above, but I was being a bit more general. Yes, I've got RW right now. What I don't have, for example, is the full Downtime and Kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign in HeroLab. I really, really, REALLY want them, but I'm not chasing LWD for them, for the reasons I stated above: I know that they're going to be done right, not in some half-arsed, shoddy way that gives me the bare minimum functionality. That's the kind of credit LWD have built up with me, as a customer, over the years.

(And for an example of what I mean when I say I really want the HL version of the kingdom rules, hop over to Paizo's message boards and find the Ultimate Campaign Kingdom Spreadsheet thread - I've got the same username there as I do here.)

Yes, delays chafe all of us, and we all want to play, but I'm just trying to counsel patience, because I know the end result will be worth it.

 

[Indigojones]

We are actually in the process of completely redoing the website too

YES!!! i will look forward to this very much so. slightly less then the release of RW but still looking forward none the less..

Cemlak-
no i get you. i know i am being very impatient. but this is my situation i am currently running 3 different campaigns in the same world. and the way i have been working is that each party does effect the others even though they have never met. so it is very difficult to have to re read all of my notes every week we play to remember oh wait is it this party that did x,y and z that turned around and effected group 2 which then did a,b, and c. it has just become very cumbersome, to the point that i have been pushing back play time to be able to re go through my notes. so i am at a cross roads.

My choice:
1 find a product that is out right now and use that and be half ass about it
2 find a different product put all my information in it and then re do it all over again once this comes out
3 hold of playing till this comes out

and with out a release date it makes me un willing to do the 3rd. smartly i should have put in for the kick started but i was not aware of it till shortly after then end. so i am SOL and grumpy.

 

[Dervish]

At this point since we are now thinking november will see completion i am jusst going to add two months because if it comes out in november or december therre is no way i will be able to get it til after christmas just the way things go i have neices and nephews and my own son who are more important than my need to organize my campaigns.

 

[llothos]

YES!!! i will look forward to this very much so. slightly less then the release of RW but still looking forward none the less..

Cemlak-
no i get you. i know i am being very impatient. but this is my situation i am currently running 3 different campaigns in the same world. and the way i have been working is that each party does effect the others even though they have never met. so it is very difficult to have to re read all of my notes every week we play to remember oh wait is it this party that did x,y and z that turned around and effected group 2 which then did a,b, and c. it has just become very cumbersome, to the point that i have been pushing back play time to be able to re go through my notes. so i am at a cross roads.

My choice:
1 find a product that is out right now and use that and be half ass about it
2 find a different product put all my information in it and then re do it all over again once this comes out
3 hold of playing till this comes out

and with out a release date it makes me un willing to do the 3rd. smartly i should have put in for the kick started but i was not aware of it till shortly after then end. so i am SOL and grumpy.

While I don't have anything quite as elaborate but I too am in process of starting a campaign and am looking to be organized but I don't want to have to do things more then once. My group is getting anxious to start but I've been holding off a bit for a couple of reasons (one is waiting on this software).

 

[pjrichert]

At this point, we've seen promises of release dates several times. I'm just going to wait till I hear that the product is out from outside sources. The track record on this project shows that it's just unreliable.

I don't mean to sound down, but I've really been looking forward to this product to help with my VTT Pathfinder campaign. It's not that I don't think the product will be great, just losing faith in the product being released on the projected release dates anymore. Love HL and the products from LWD, but I'll wait till I hear that Realm Works is released from the community, rather than trying to follow on their site.

 

[asw122]

At this point, we've seen promises of release dates several times. I'm just going to wait till I hear that the product is out from outside sources. The track record on this project shows that it's just unreliable.

I don't mean to sound down, but I've really been looking forward to this product to help with my VTT Pathfinder campaign. It's not that I don't think the product will be great, just losing faith in the product being released on the projected release dates anymore. Love HL and the products from LWD, but I'll wait till I hear that Realm Works is released from the community, rather than trying to follow on their site.

We'll, they've never given a concrete date. The closest we had was "if everything goes perfectly, then it should be out at the end of Oct". Well things haven't gone perfectly, ergo, its not gonna be the end of Oct. I mean if it comes out Mid November or even Mid December, is 6 weeks on a rough estimate that big of a problem?

 

[karpomatic]

At this point waiting a few more weeks is no more tedious than the time we've already put in. As a Pack Member, I'm hoping to see it in a week or so.

 

[JStreet]

I got my first child do in 9 days... i would LOVE to have this before its born.... I'm gonna be home bound for awhile lol. There is no way to get a solid release date? :/ I am still sad i missed the kick starter by a day :/

 

[lifer4700]

...oh wait is it this party that did x,y and z that turned around and effected group 2 which then did a,b, and c. it has just become very cumbersome, to the point that i have been pushing back play time to be able to re go through my notes....

From what I understand - and I was VERY surprised when I heard this - the software won't have that basic functionality.

At least, it's what I would call basic, but apparently you will not be able to keep track of information separately for your players. Either ALL players know it, or NO players know it - there is no piece of information that just 1 or 2 players can know. Or in your case, for example, if Eric the Cavalier from Group A learns a piece of knowledge, or finds a treasure map, then not only does everyone from Group A know it as well, also everyone from Groups B and C automatically gain the knowledge.

I have no idea why a game tracking system was designed this way... it makes no sense to me. It saddens me.

I've heard that they may try to add this feature in the future, though so I might buy it when they get it working.

 

[pyremius]

Neither the game designers nor the early testers simultaneously run multiple games within the same instance of a game world, so the idea got overlooked (they did, however, include support for multiple "shards" by allowing the duplication of a Realm so you could run multiple groups through different instances of the same world).

This is in fact one of the bigger preventable reasons for Realm Works' delay. Once the idea was proposed during the Kickstarter and they had the chance to wrap their minds around a different way of running games they, recognized that it would become a very useful feature. Rewriting enough of the code to allow the later inclusion of this capability was the best compromise they could come up with: implementing fully before release would have pushed the release date back even further (we don't know how far, but my guess would be Spring or later); and shipping the program with its original structure would have required an ever-harder rewrite when they finally went back to add the capability, and increased the likelihood user data would be corrupted or lost when version 2.0 came out. Even though the capability is there yet the underlying data structures are, so when they do add the capability we should see a relatively easy transfer of our data.

This was covered in the backer notes during the Kickstarter campaign - I want to say mid- to late- campaign. We won't get the capability right away because they still want to get the basic functionality out as close to the target date as possible, but the delay does mean we'll get it sooner (all code written after that point would also have had to be redone) and safer (our data will already be compatible, so less chance of corruption/loss).

 

[lifer4700]

Neither the game designers nor the early testers simultaneously run multiple games within the same instance of a game world, so the idea got overlooked.

Even if you only have a single game with a single group, there are still multiple characters/players in that group.

---------------------------

Believe me, I understand how utterly systemic it would be to have to change something as core as moving from a group-level permission structure to allow user-level permissions.

I wish I could have been on the early testing team! That's one of the first things that stood out for me when I read about the capabilities of this software.

Every single campaign I've ever played in or run (and that's a few decades' worth) has had information that one player knows and another doesn't.

I hope it's added soon after release! I'm looking forward to this software, and I can start populating my world right away, but I'll have to stick with my forum for the 'private' info.

 

[Indigojones]

I get Delays i just don't get why we haven't been updated in the delay or a hard date. November is technically still fall but no hard date or even news on if it is going to be spring of even fall of next year. but i feel the consensus is that everyone is getting tired of waiting. this newsletter thats coming out better be amazing or im done waiting.

 

[pyremius]

I get Delays i just don't get why we haven't been updated in the delay or a hard date. November is technically still fall but no hard date or even news on if it is going to be spring of even fall of next year. but i feel the consensus is that everyone is getting tired of waiting. this newsletter thats coming out better be amazing or im done waiting.

I have to admit being quite confused by your claims. Wolf Lair has posted multiple updates regarding the delays (and if you'd bothered to read any of their posts you would be aware that there have been multiple delays, not one single cause). For that matter, I'm not sure what consensus you see. There are over 1100 Kickstarter backers still waiting for the software to release, and most have not posted anything, much less complaints about progress.

I'm eagerly awaiting the completed product too. I know my players will be glad to have access to all of the information they have collected during the campaign, especially the material that seemed too trivial to copy down (or share) at the time. On the other hand, I'd rather they not ship something that doesn't work reliably - not just for the perception it creates among potential users, but also for the perception it creates among content creators who are trying to decide whether or not to make their material available through Realm Works. Also, the fewer (and smaller) the bugs, the less likely it is our data will be at risk when upgrading to new versions.

 

[Nikmal]

Even if you only have a single game with a single group, there are still multiple characters/players in that group.

---------------------------

Believe me, I understand how utterly systemic it would be to have to change something as core as moving from a group-level permission structure to allow user-level permissions.

I wish I could have been on the early testing team! That's one of the first things that stood out for me when I read about the capabilities of this software.

Every single campaign I've ever played in or run (and that's a few decades' worth) has had information that one player knows and another doesn't.

I hope it's added soon after release! I'm looking forward to this software, and I can start populating my world right away, but I'll have to stick with my forum for the 'private' info.

If you are basically doing the same realm and such and want to run say.. 3 groups, you just create those 3 groups for group A,B, and C then input the characters in to said group. You can then share information between those groups and such quite easily. and even make it so that character 1 from group A has information that character 6 from group C needs then you have that information handy.

What you can't do though is to create separate realms/campaigns you can't share information between them at the moment is all. But groups are available for the SAME campaign/realm though.

This making sense you at all?? I hope so