What's the Delay?

[rob]

@Indigojones:

1. Last I checked, Fall runs until December 21st. So a Fall timeframe is still accurate.

2. Your belief that we should "know" the exact release date at this point appears to be based on zero understanding of how things operate here and what our criteria are for actually putting out a release. We've publicly shared various insights into our philosophy and the criteria we're using. We've shared even more details with the Kickstarter backers. I urge you to avail yourself of that information.

3. Your assertion that we went with Kickstarter to avoid having someone pull funding is insulting and clearly indicates that you are throwing around words without understanding what you're talking about. Please stop, as you've probably already lost credibility with most people reading this forum. Digging a deeper hole is merely going to get you completely ignored by everyone.

4. You apparently aren't aware that we actually offered REFUNDS over the summer to Kickstarter backers who had not received anything - before the Early Access release came out. Only a handful of backers took us up on the offer, and many other backers actually INCREASED their pledge at the time. Why? Because we've been transparent with our backers and they almost unanimously agreed with our philosophy. In other words, we offered to give our investors their money back, and they instead opted to give us MORE money. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit the ridiculous story you're trying to sell, but it's reality.

Bottom line: Throwing what looks like a childish temper tantrum and making ludicrous and unfounded accusations will accomplish nothing towards getting Realm Works out before we deem it ready. All it will achieve is (a) making you look bad and (b) slowing DOWN the release while we stop to respond to you here. You're welcome to keep saying whatever you want. However, I'm going to focus MY efforts on getting Realm Works out the door.

 

[rob]

Assorted responses:

@lifer4700: Believe it or not, giving individual players separate clues wasn't part of the gaming experience for anyone on the team when we began developing Realm Works. It was something we knew some people did, but we didn't think it was popular. We then added over 100 people to the Beta team, and only a few Beta members mentioned wanting this capability, reinforcing our perception that it was a niche feature. Then we launched the Kickstarter and found out that a solid number of GMs rely on that capability. So we stopped and reworked the architecture to support it, but it's not something that will be fully developed and exposed in V1.0. It will definitely be added and is high on the feature list for after the V1.0 release.

@PatJe: The plan is to make revealing material to individual players fast and easy. However, it's not quite as simple as you've made it sound. What about when the GM wants to reveal material to multiple players? Or all players EXCEPT the one who's not present? Or what about a player running two PCs, with one knowing something and the other not? Or what about a GM wanting to track which pieces of information are known by different NPCs that the PCs are trying to dupe or double-cross or play against each other? We need to think through all those situations (and more) and put together a solution that handles them all smoothly. There's a lot more than just revealing to PlayerA and not PlayerB.

@woobyluv: That was PRICELESS! Thank you for making me laugh!

@Zinquox: Most of Realm Works has not been tried before, so we've spent a LOT of time trying out ideas, getting feedback from the Beta team, and then often making dramatic revisions - sometimes completely starting over with a capability. For the past few months, though, we've been very narrowly focused on the core functionality of the product. That being said, we HAVE still been refining the overall UI to make it more intuitive and accessible to new users. By some definitions, this could be considered "feature creep", but we really want the product to be highly usable to a vast array of GMs - and that's a tall order, since every GM has his own unique wants and needs. We revised some key aspects of the product before we made the Early Access release, and we then used the feedback from those new users to guide us in one last round of refinements. All those refinements are within a few days of being completed. When they are all in place, we'll be releasing to the rest of the Kickstarter backers. After that, what's left is getting the remaining server syncing logic into place, cleanup of assorted loose ends, testing, more testing, and bug fixes.

Hope this helps!!!

 

[Nargath]

Just to throw another voice in here and my support for the guys.

I'm dying to get my hands on Realm Works, as I've got this campaign world floating around in my head, and writing it down in notebooks doesn't seem to be doing it justice. I want to use this to build my world and accompanying adventures alongside each other, so one can influence the other, and build parts of it organically.

I missed out on the Kickstarter by a couple of weeks, and I've been eagerly awaiting each piece of news, or un-news. Sure I've been super disappointed that it keeps getting pushed back, but purely from a standpoint of I want this program!

Hero Lab is such a well designed and thought out piece of kit, and is my primary tool for gaming and GMing, and I know that Realm Works will be the same way, at the same quality level.

But, by the same token, you aren't beholden to anything. They are no obligation to us to give us what we want right now, if they are not feeling that it's the best time for a release. And they are well within their rights to not give us a time frame or solid date, especially if it gives them the ability to further work on last minute additions or problems.

You are not an owner or shareholder of this company (I imagine). There isn't anything riding on this release for you. Take a breath, step away from the computer, and relax. As awesome as this will be, its just a computer program for a hobby. It's not going to kill you to wait just a bit longer.
We've been waiting this long. You can't stick it out to the end?
It's not like its 3-4 years overdue and there's been a lack of updates on its progress. It's been pushed back 6 months, which in terms of a full system rollout for a small team, is not a bad turn around.

 

[karpomatic]

@Indigojones:

1. Last I checked, Fall runs until December 21st. So a Fall timeframe is still accurate.

2. Your belief that we should "know" the exact release date at this point appears to be based on zero understanding of how things operate here and what our criteria are for actually putting out a release. We've publicly shared various insights into our philosophy and the criteria we're using. We've shared even more details with the Kickstarter backers. I urge you to avail yourself of that information.

3. Your assertion that we went with Kickstarter to avoid having someone pull funding is insulting and clearly indicates that you are throwing around words without understanding what you're talking about. Please stop, as you've probably already lost credibility with most people reading this forum. Digging a deeper hole is merely going to get you completely ignored by everyone.

4. You apparently aren't aware that we actually offered REFUNDS over the summer to Kickstarter backers who had not received anything - before the Early Access release came out. Only a handful of backers took us up on the offer, and many other backers actually INCREASED their pledge at the time. Why? Because we've been transparent with our backers and they almost unanimously agreed with our philosophy. In other words, we offered to give our investors their money back, and they instead opted to give us MORE money. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit the ridiculous story you're trying to sell, but it's reality.

Bottom line: Throwing what looks like a childish temper tantrum and making ludicrous and unfounded accusations will accomplish nothing towards getting Realm Works out before we deem it ready. All it will achieve is (a) making you look bad and (b) slowing DOWN the release while we stop to respond to you here. You're welcome to keep saying whatever you want. However, I'm going to focus MY efforts on getting Realm Works out the door.

Rob, I couldn't have said it better myself. the non-kickstarter backers just don't have the information that we're privy to.

 

[lifer4700]

@Indigojones:
...we actually offered REFUNDS over the summer to Kickstarter backers who had not received anything - before the Early Access release came out. Only a handful of backers took us up on the offer...

So that means there's room for me to take one of those spots? j/k

Thank you Rob, for taking the time to keep us informed on what is happening. I'm sure you're well aware that there are many of us out here, waiting (im)patiently for the release, and updates from inside mean a great deal to us.

Spoiler: Us non-kickstarter peeps waiting patiently.

http://onlinemoviemaven.com/mmwp/wp-content/uploads/WWZ2.jpg

EDIT: Hmm, spoiler tags don't work? Changed IMG to URL so as not to flood peoples' bandwidth.

 

[Dervish]

i was going to buy realm works when it came out and a number of my friend are however in light of your bottom line rob and a complete lack of customer service skills i won't be supporting this or any other future ventures your company undertakes and i will do my best to let the virtual tabletop community know as well

 

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Come on guys, really?!? No one has been more impatient for Realmworks' release than I have; but to get antagonistic with the developers at this 11th hour is just pitiful. I'm sure they are doing the best they can, and we'll just have to wait a few more weeks. It won't kill us.

 

[JackOfAllGames]

i was going to buy realm works when it came out and a number of my friend are however in light of your bottom line rob and a complete lack of customer service skills i won't be supporting this or any other future ventures your company undertakes and i will do my best to let the virtual tabletop community know as well

Hm. I guess everyone has their own take. Unless you're the guy he was talking to, I'm not sure why you'd get offended. You can do what you want to do, but that strikes me as a bit of an overreaction.

I for one don't mind straight-talk from a company and its representatives. I'd far prefer that kind of talk to meaningless platitudes. The language was a bit harsh, but I don't think it was wrong...or unjustified (from some of the posts that I've seen around here).

Furthermore, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm getting into speculation now), but Lone Wolf isn't some giant company with virtually unlimited resources. I'd guess that they're geeks like us, doing the kind of work that they like to do, building products for the communities that they love. As such, they're likely doing most of their own customer service without dedicated CS staff.

I'm not sure what some people here expect. Right now, we all have to wait. No one is happy about that...but that's not realistically going to change. We can be civil or...not.

 

[karpomatic]

i was going to buy realm works when it came out and a number of my friend are however in light of your bottom line rob and a complete lack of customer service skills i won't be supporting this or any other future ventures your company undertakes and i will do my best to let the virtual tabletop community know as well

That's pretty childish, Dervish.

 

[Chemlak]

i was going to buy realm works when it came out and a number of my friend are however in light of your bottom line rob and a complete lack of customer service skills i won't be supporting this or any other future ventures your company undertakes and i will do my best to let the virtual tabletop community know as well

To ring in with other commenters: so, your take on rob's comment is that you'd prefer an incomplete, potentially bug-laden product that doesn't include the promised functionality, and because you're not going to get that you're going to avoid spending money on anything a company that tries to achieve those lofty goals makes, and further you're going to try to persuade other people to avoid them, too?

Toys. Pram. Out.

 

[tripleozero]

I'm not a backer of any sort, though I've been a Hero Lab customer for about a year now. I did not find out about this product until after the Kickstarter was funded and betas began. All that said, I'm looking forward to its release, and will definitely purchase it once it's ready.

I would like to say that I'm amazed by the few people screaming about delays, but I'm not -- that's what you get in forums these days thanks to the entitlement culture that evolved on anonymous Internet forums. Despite the candidness and transparency, there will always be people looking to get offended. Example: "How dare you be honest and upfront instead of pandering to me and apologizing for my ignorance?!!"

In any case, please take your time and do it right. I'm looking forward to giving this a whirl once it's done.

 

[JStreet]

I know i have been a Little Impatient. To that i would like to apologize. I am overly excited. I was very very happy to read Robs posts though

Thank you Rob for the Updates. I can not wait! I have been telling multiple friends about the program, showing them the kickstarter, and i think we will all be buying in to it.

 

[rob]

Furthermore, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm getting into speculation now), but Lone Wolf isn't some giant company with virtually unlimited resources. I'd guess that they're geeks like us, doing the kind of work that they like to do, building products for the communities that they love. As such, they're likely doing most of their own customer service without dedicated CS staff.

That's a pretty accurate summation. Until April, the Realm Works team was THREE people. We doubled the team in April, which was both good and bad. It took months to get them all really up to speed, and those months meant our overall productivity dropped due to all the time spent getting them up to speed. We've all been working our tails off.

It's incredibly frustrating on our end as well. We want to get this product out the door. We hear everyone clamoring for it. But we aren't going to put out a crappy or bug-ridden product just to hit a delivery date. That's not how WE operate, even though I realize it's become a common practice among software companies.

I greatly appreciate everyone's patience and support. I've been working 100+ hour weeks, without a break, for 18 months straight - all focused on making Realm Works a stellar product. I'm generally pretty patient because I can understand the frustration you're all feeling - I feel it just as strongly from the other side of the fence. But there's a line that just doesn't get crossed without me speaking up - and that's where flat-out lies are maliciously presented as fact. @Indigojones went well past that line.

If others took offense at my response, I apologize for that. I desperately need a break. But I MORE desperately want to get this product out the door and into everyone's hands. We ALL want to accomplish that on this end. The best analogy I can think of is the Iron Man Triathlon. We've finished the 2.4-mile swim. We've finished the 112-mile bike ride. We're coming to the end of the 26-mile marathon. At this point, we just need to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Once we cross the finish line, then EVERYBODY will be happy.

So again, my apologies if I overstepped in my response. Now I need to get back to the trenches to fix some bugs.

 

[AEIOU]

No apologies needed.

Quite frankly, you've been overly gracious and beyond patient with a number of self-entitled schmucks. (Ooops, did I say that out loud? My bad.)

A huge segment of the gaming community has been seeking this program or something like it since the 1980's. If it was an easy proposition, there would be multiple options available today. The reality is you took on an impossible task and you're making it happen.

Focus on quality. Make this the tool we've dreamt about for decades. Quality cannot be rushed.

 

[Aleslosh]

To the staff of Lone Wolf: From everything I'm reading, it appears that you're doing better than can be expected with the resources available to you. I, too, am anxious for the release of this software but am extremely willing to wait for a final product that YOU are happy with. When all is said and done, its the future profitability of your company that is riding on a QUALITY software release. In order to get that quality, very specific steps must be taken. Most folks haven't a CLUE what it takes to get a high quality piece of software out the door.

To the rest of us I repeat: Be Patient! Consider yourself in their shoes. I would not doubt that a lot of us GMs have considered ways to create this same (approximate) product only to set aside the idea as too difficult or time consuming. Would YOU be willing to put in the time or effort required to complete a project of this magnitude? No? So what gives you the right to complain about how long its taking a very small group of passionate people to take something from the idea stage to finished product?

Lol, can you tell I'm a little irked by some of the negative comments?

 

[Indigojones]

@Indigojones:

1. Last I checked, Fall runs until December 21st. So a Fall timeframe is still accurate.

2. Your belief that we should "know" the exact release date at this point appears to be based on zero understanding of how things operate here and what our criteria are for actually putting out a release. We've publicly shared various insights into our philosophy and the criteria we're using. We've shared even more details with the Kickstarter backers. I urge you to avail yourself of that information.

3. Your assertion that we went with Kickstarter to avoid having someone pull funding is insulting and clearly indicates that you are throwing around words without understanding what you're talking about. Please stop, as you've probably already lost credibility with most people reading this forum. Digging a deeper hole is merely going to get you completely ignored by everyone.

4. You apparently aren't aware that we actually offered REFUNDS over the summer to Kickstarter backers who had not received anything - before the Early Access release came out. Only a handful of backers took us up on the offer, and many other backers actually INCREASED their pledge at the time. Why? Because we've been transparent with our backers and they almost unanimously agreed with our philosophy. In other words, we offered to give our investors their money back, and they instead opted to give us MORE money. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit the ridiculous story you're trying to sell, but it's reality.

Bottom line: Throwing what looks like a childish temper tantrum and making ludicrous and unfounded accusations will accomplish nothing towards getting Realm Works out before we deem it ready. All it will achieve is (a) making you look bad and (b) slowing DOWN the release while we stop to respond to you here. You're welcome to keep saying whatever you want. However, I'm going to focus MY efforts on getting Realm Works out the door.

1 you are absolutely correct i did mistake the dates when i first looked it up i mistook 12/21 with 11/21

2 i would love to get more information but i am not a backer (not by choice) i do read the newsletters and look on your fb... because making people look in different locations for information is always a good idea....
it shouldn't matter how it works over a realm works or anywhere else you are supplying a product. every one claims to want to put the best product out there and some say oh whats a few delays for a good product or that delays make it good. but for every 1 good product there are 10 duke nukem forever's...

3 this one you got completely wrong. and i may have not conveyed my opinion correctly but i didn't say you went with kick starter to avoid having funding pulled. what i was trying to say is that with a single backer they expect a time line and want the product out on a timely manner because they dont start to make their money back till the product is out. having kick starter unless i missed it no one will be getting a part of the profit. so no time line... no push... what motivation do the programmers have to get the product finished. at the end they all get cut. so why not milk it a little longer?

4 i dont even know why this was brought up. yay? did every single backer have to respond or they got a refund? im sure 99% of them didnt even see the option.

as for the bottom of the line im sorry to say this but if i look like an idiot on here and people dont read this it doesnt hurt me. while the "childish temper tantrum" you pulled does look poorly on you (which is a personal thing) and company and product you are suppose to be a face for. so who is loosing more out of this. me a random person on the internet who was looking forward to this product. or realm works?

look it looks like a good product but really do you think a month away is unrealistic to expect a release date? you want to put a good product out sure but really you dont know if your going to be done with something in a month? a year out, 6 months out sure there is give in there. a month... ya that is BS. your in the thick of it step back you cant see the forest from the trees.

 

[lifer4700]

...the "childish temper tantrum" you pulled does look poorly on you

I think you got that one backward.

so who is loosing more out of this.

Just how "loose" is it?

look it looks like a good product but really do you think a month away is unrealistic to expect a release date? you want to put a good product out sure but really you dont know if your going to be done with something in a month? a year out, 6 months out sure there is give in there. a month... ya that is BS. your in the thick of it step back you cant see the forest from the trees.

Never worked with software before, have you?


@woobyluv - I think your Resist Troll spell is failing! Recast! Recast!

 

[Zinquox]

Thank you Rob for that insight. It relieved many of my fears, and it all makes total sense. I appreciate you taking the time to respond...now, um, get back to work.

 

[Dervish]

To ring in with other commenters: so, your take on rob's comment is that you'd prefer an incomplete, potentially bug-laden product that doesn't include the promised functionality, and because you're not going to get that you're going to avoid spending money on anything a company that tries to achieve those lofty goals makes, and further you're going to try to persuade other people to avoid them, too?

Toys. Pram. Out.

I was fine right up till rob said this

Bottom line: Throwing what looks like a childish temper tantrum and making ludicrous and unfounded accusations will accomplish nothing towards getting Realm Works out before we deem it ready. All it will achieve is (a) making you look bad and (b) slowing DOWN the release while we stop to respond to you here. You're welcome to keep saying whatever you want. However, I'm going to focus MY efforts on getting Realm Works out the door..



If i ever addressed a customer potential or otherwise like this My life expectancy in any professional company would be measured in minutes period it is inappropriate to address Customers potential or current in such a manner it is unprofessional. you can think you can talk to your coworkers about it you can even complain to your compay president or ceo or whoever but you can never address a customer with the level of disrespect that was shown here. Not if you want your business to grow.

 

[lifer4700]

Never say "never," because it was done. It was appropriate, and well within bounds.

Receiving respect is not a guarantee when it is not given in the first place.

"The customer is always right." That's bull pucky. Many times they're wrong - and there's nothing wrong with informing them of that fact.


There were several times where I've had the opportunity to say. "Sir, you're going to have to leave this establishment." Because they were just plain wrong and didn't want to admit it. Thankfully, we had an off-duty police officer packing heat as a part-time worker to make sure they didn't argue much!