Hero Lab Online

[RavenX]

Online Direct.----Booooooo--- I say bad form. I think this would force a change to a subscription model. and us poor gamers are cheap. If it goes subscription, I guess I'm going back to formfill pdfs. Unless you can avoid the whole subscription thing, and still support the old purchase to own setup. and have offline access.

They are doing a subscription fee, its covered in this thread:
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=59009

They made this announcement fairly recently.

 

[Skeld]

Most companies that convert from perpetual to subscription models typically offer a "conversion" to the new offering. Otherwise they risk alienating/losing their current install base. For LWD, there core model is selling data sets...no new data set, no incremental revenue. Converting to sub establishes a far more consistent revenue stream. I would not be surprised to see a model similar to the one DDB just released...a core sub fee w/ the option to purchase additional content. Personally, I have no issues with this model, subject to the actual prices involved.

My biggest question is how they'll handle offline access/utility. I would much rather have the data sync to device so that I don't need to be dependent on their server.

I do have an issue with that model. I have no interest in an online, subscription service.

-Skeld

 

[BJ]

Alright everyone here are the questions we've answered so far. http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=59075

I'd have had it up earlier if not for the fact that I not only have some manner of plague, but our pallets went on an adventure and I spent a good part of the day sitting in a ridiculously warm storage unit sorting through thousands of dollars worth of potentially damaged equipment.

 

[Paragon]

I'm not going to say the clear implication that most things going forward are only going to be done in HLO thrills me (and I bet the people interested in Starfinder who are in my situation are even less thrilled) but at least it doesn't look like those of us not jumping on the HLO bus are going to immediately be thrown under it.

 

[Alewis]

So all is good unless you want to play Starfinder, in which case you need to pay a subscription fee in addition to the content fees.

I don't get it. From the FAQ it doesn't seem like anything is changing. What are the features?

 

[kellhorn]

So all is good unless you want to play Starfinder, in which case you need to pay a subscription fee in addition to the content fees.

I don't get it. From the FAQ it doesn't seem like anything is changing. What are the features?

Not being able to use Hero Lab for Starfinder if you play in an area with spotty wi-fi and spotty cell reception/low-no data cap cell plans. And something about spaceships.

 

[BJ]

So all is good unless you want to play Starfinder, in which case you need to pay a subscription fee in addition to the content fees.

I don't get it. From the FAQ it doesn't seem like anything is changing. What are the features?

There are a plethora of items that this applies to that are just better suited to an article than a basic FAQ. One thing at a time. We will be releasing articles in the coming weeks outlining many items in more detail. This is the first one I intend to address.

 

[Tumorseal]

Q: Will Hero Lab Classic support Starfinder.
A: Starfinder is a unique system with various aspects that are much better suited to Hero Lab Online. Heck, that’s why we’re focusing on Starfinder first! Consequently, we will not be offering Starfinder in Hero Lab Classic, at least initially, as it wouldn’t be as powerful or enjoyable to use.


Oh come on.

Starfinder is not that different from Pathfinder. This is kinda BS guys. You just want the hot new game to be on the new program only to force people to migrate.

 

[daplunk]

They are doing things with Starfinder that are not possible with Hero Lab.

Specifically they have mentioned the ability to have shared control and use of the spaceships between players. I assume this will allow shared content storage for example.

Hero Lab is not network aware between the players and DMs. Personally I think this is really exciting. I'm picturing a castle being built and shared among my players in a fantasy setting.

 

[BJ]

They are doing things with Starfinder that are not possible with Hero Lab.

Specifically they have mentioned the ability to have shared control and use of the spaceships between players. I assume this will allow shared content storage for example.

Hero Lab is not network aware between the players and DMs. Personally I think this is really exciting. I'm picturing a castle being build and shared among my players in a fantasy setting.

Indeed! I'm pretty excited about party loot management too! XD

 

[MNBlockHead]

Based on the FAQ, they have taken a very reasonable approach. You won't have to rebuy your content to use HLO, the subscription is very reasonably priced, HL Classic will continue getting support.

If they could only get an official license for 5e content, I would happily sign up. As it is, I don't think I'd subscribe just to get the SRD content...unless the tactical console would automatically update payers' character sheets live.

 

[EightBitz]

Based on the FAQ, they have taken a very reasonable approach. You won't have to rebuy your content to use HLO, the subscription is very reasonably priced, HL Classic will continue getting support.

If they could only get an official license for 5e content, I would happily sign up. As it is, I don't think I'd subscribe just to get the SRD content...unless the tactical console would automatically update payers' character sheets live.

I won't be signing up. There's no benefit for me. We use HL for character creation only. When I DM, I'm the only one who uses a tac console. I'm also the only one who uses RW for anything at all.

My players didn't even like it when I used a VTT on a big screen to display a battle map. Any subscription amount for HLO would just be a waste of money for me.

 

[daplunk]

I'm installing a network cable to my game room this weekend. Ive paid more for lunch in a single sitting that they are charging for a year. Happy to help keep the lights on.

There is one thing I expect from LWD though. Official 5e support for both Realm Works and Hero Lab. This is the thing I desire over any other changes they could make.

 

[Toblakai]

There is one thing I expect from LWD though. Official 5e support for both Realm Works and Hero Lab. This is the thing I desire over any other changes they could make.

You might want to send an email to WoTC.. I suspect the holdup is not on LWD's end.

 

[daplunk]

You might want to send an email to WoTC.. I suspect the holdup is not on LWD's end.

I hope not honestly because that would indicate it's more unlikely for us ever to see licensed content. I'm hoping they are in discussions already and basically waiting to be able to show WOTC the RW content market, prove to them that their content is secure with the new secure content system and show off Hero Lab Online as a more appealing product for WOTC to get on board with.

 

[EightBitz]

I'm installing a network cable to my game room this weekend. Ive paid more for lunch in a single sitting that they are charging for a year. Happy to help keep the lights on.

There is one thing I expect from LWD though. Official 5e support for both Realm Works and Hero Lab. This is the thing I desire over any other changes they could make.

I'm happy to help keep the lights on as well, with the right model.

With Realm Works, for example, I'm currently enjoying free cloud access. I may or may not continue that when the content market goes live. It all depends on my financial situation at the time. But say that I don't. I still have full, unrestricted access to use the program locally. I can create content. I can view content. I can export content.

With HLO, if my subscription lapses, I'm in view-only mode. I can't create. I can't edit. Any data packages I don't share with HLC, I lose access to. If I have three data packages that aren't shared with HLC, that could total to as much as $120. And if my $2/mo subscription lapses, that's $120 worth of content that I can no longer access.

I'm just not a fan of that business model.

 

[mallardduck]

I don't begrudge them needing a subscription for revenue, but going online only is a bad decision for a whole lot of reasons.

I only use hl for character creation and in game playing of my own character on my iPad. If my group wanted a virtual tabletop we'd use one. None of the multiplayer features are of any interest, as only about half of us can afford to buy all the content packs, and unless the whole group uses it, none of those features are worth anything. That also eliminates convention or pfs use.

Plus, it only works if you have always on high speed internet access. That's another issue at conventions as most hotels still actively block hotspots, or have the equivalent of faraday cages around the floors with horrible cell service. A lot of game stores are the same. I am near 100% sure there will be an inevitable server outage, network glitch, or DDOS attack that takes the entire system down.

The only answer for those is to always print a backup. And if I have to go back to paper, I'll just go back to paper. Because if it's down, and you didn't, you're sol and the game doesn't happen that day. Pregens just aren't as much fun to play.

There's a ton of other risks too. Getting a complex UI to render properly in multiple browsers - and multiple versions - is painful. Will they support all major browsers or require a specific one on each platform? Will it work with ad and tracker blocking plugins enabled? Are they going to attempt offline mode in-browser (horribly unreliable)? How about visual assistance for folks with imparement?

Last, I simply don't trust that 'classic' will be supported with all new content long term. First proof is the lack of starfinder support. They have created a false rationale to not do character creation and single player in game use by adding new requirements for multiplayer access that are feature only a subset of players use or want. they could easily provide char creation in both, but didn't in order to push their new platform. And that makes me very very suspicious. I've seen too many small development shops launch a new platform, promise the old would be preserved, then down the road drop the old because it's too expensive to maintain two code bases.

Since online is a high risk, low value, marginally functional option, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless purchases on top of what now looks like wasted money, I'll stop buying completely. No new data packs. No subscription. A lost customer. How many of their customers are in that boat? I suspect a lot more than they think.

I'd be perfectly happy to move to a subscription model for a true offline/local/application solution. It's not about money for me, it's about reliability, functionality and usability - and a long future for my gaming dollar investment.

 

[Toblakai]

I don't begrudge them needing a subscription for revenue, but going online only is a bad decision for a whole lot of reasons.

The subscription is not for profit, I suspect they will probably barely break even at $2/month.
So this point is mostly moot.

Plus, it only works if you have always on high speed internet access. That's another issue at conventions as most hotels still actively block hotspots, or have the equivalent of faraday cages around the floors with horrible cell service. A lot of game stores are the same. I am near 100% sure there will be an inevitable server outage, network glitch, or DDOS attack that takes the entire system down.

You know everyone has their outages, so whats your point? High speed? They have already said it won't consume much bandwidth. Compared to a YouTube video it will be nothing. It's the 21st century, The world is getting more and more connected.

The only answer for those is to always print a backup. And if I have to go back to paper, I'll just go back to paper. Because if it's down, and you didn't, you're sol and the game doesn't happen that day. Pregens just aren't as much fun to play.

PFS isn't that much fun anyways, j/k, not as much fun though. More than likely you will know that you are going to a convention, they don't typically just happen randomly. Print before you go.

There's a ton of other risks too. Getting a complex UI to render properly in multiple browsers - and multiple versions - is painful. Will they support all major browsers or require a specific one on each platform? Will it work with ad and tracker blocking plugins enabled? Are they going to attempt offline mode in-browser (horribly unreliable)? How about visual assistance for folks with imparement?

They are supporting all major browsers, its in the FAQ. Turn off the add block for PF, it's real easy to do. Your just coming up with more pointless arguments.

For all that, my big concern is that I don't trust that 'classic' will be supported long term. I've seen too many small development shops do a transition, promise the old would be preserved, then down the road drop the old because it's too expensive to maintain two code bases.

Since online is a high risk, low value, marginally functional option, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless purchases on top of what now looks like wasted money, I'll stop buying completely. No new data packs. No subscription. How many of their customers are in that boat? I suspect a lot more than they think.

I'd be perfectly happy to move to a subscription model for a true offline/local solution. It's not about money for me, it's about reliability, functionality and usability.

Again more pointless arguments, they are supporting HLC, and will for the foreseeable future I'm sure. Now if 98% of their usage is HLO in 5 years, they may change their mind.

 

[DeltaMasterMind]

Hell I don't blame mallardduck for his views on HLO as a-lot of developers have done in the real world as he has expressed concerns about. The more content, that we shell money out for, they put behind a paywall the more customers will get angry, simple truth. Two code bases can be very difficult to maintain and currently the HLO business model will not pay for that and we all know it needs to be paid for to be supported. Considering that model I assume the market will get to decide on which base gets the support in the long term.

I personally want HLO to become something bigger than roll20(dot)net in the form of maptools and such additions. A full encompassing system like that would be grand for me as I do want to have an entire digital interface for all aspects of the game system that can be allowed. Realm Works with HLO tactical console and maptool integrated APIs would be a grand dream for me. If this is a possible path then I would be all for supporting HLO, but that is a very huge undertaking. I seriously have my doubts they have a size-able enough development team for such a project and to maintain multiple game code bases.

I will be keeping a close eye on this for the foreseeable future.

 

[Gobrious]

I don't begrudge them needing a subscription for revenue, but going online only is a bad decision for a whole lot of reasons.

I only use hl for character creation and in game playing of my own character on my iPad. If my group wanted a virtual tabletop we'd use one. None of the multiplayer features are of any interest, as only about half of us can afford to buy all the content packs, and unless the whole group uses it, none of those features are worth anything. That also eliminates convention or pfs use.

Plus, it only works if you have always on high speed internet access. That's another issue at conventions as most hotels still actively block hotspots, or have the equivalent of faraday cages around the floors with horrible cell service. A lot of game stores are the same. I am near 100% sure there will be an inevitable server outage, network glitch, or DDOS attack that takes the entire system down.

The only answer for those is to always print a backup. And if I have to go back to paper, I'll just go back to paper. Because if it's down, and you didn't, you're sol and the game doesn't happen that day. Pregens just aren't as much fun to play.

There's a ton of other risks too. Getting a complex UI to render properly in multiple browsers - and multiple versions - is painful. Will they support all major browsers or require a specific one on each platform? Will it work with ad and tracker blocking plugins enabled? Are they going to attempt offline mode in-browser (horribly unreliable)? How about visual assistance for folks with imparement?

Last, I simply don't trust that 'classic' will be supported with all new content long term. First proof is the lack of starfinder support. They have created a false rationale to not do character creation and single player in game use by adding new requirements for multiplayer access that are feature only a subset of players use or want. they could easily provide char creation in both, but didn't in order to push their new platform. And that makes me very very suspicious. I've seen too many small development shops launch a new platform, promise the old would be preserved, then down the road drop the old because it's too expensive to maintain two code bases.

Since online is a high risk, low value, marginally functional option, and I don't want to get stuck with more useless purchases on top of what now looks like wasted money, I'll stop buying completely. No new data packs. No subscription. A lost customer. How many of their customers are in that boat? I suspect a lot more than they think.

I'd be perfectly happy to move to a subscription model for a true offline/local/application solution. It's not about money for me, it's about reliability, functionality and usability - and a long future for my gaming dollar investment.

I feel the same way. I have spent hundreds of dollars for Pathfinder content, but as it stands, I will not be spending a penny on Hero Labs Online for StarFinder, and I'm liking StarFinder more than Pathfinder.

I have 4 weekly games, at two of them I don't have access to the internet. So I wouldn't be able to use Hero Labs Online half the time when I can use it all 4 times with the "Classic" version. Sometimes the classics are just better.

I like some of the online features IF everyone at the table has a tablet or laptop, guess what, not always the case.