Hero Lab Online and Starfinder Q&A

[jkthomsen9]

The recurring fee is to maintain the service. Pay for the power to keep the servers on and the air-conditioning in the DC, pay for space required to maintain the data requirements as everyone needs to store their data on the service also. Pay for the retention service that id wager they have in place. Pay for the floor space in what ever data center they are using.

In my last role I was an IT Infrastructure PM and this stuff is not generally cheap and it's certainly ongoing.

So if you break the cost down.

The $$ to purchase the content covers the license fee that LWD pay back to the content owner. It covers the time and effort for the LWD employee to do the data entry.

The $$ for the ongoing subscription covers everything above and the support for the tool.

This is the cost of accessibility. The cost of going online. The cost of supporting as many platforms as possible with the least resourcing requirements.

I do not dispute any of this. LWD NEEDS to have a pricing system in place that is profitable. What I do have a problem with is paying full retail for a book at my local hobby store for $34.99. Then having the hobby shop charge me $2.00 a month FOREVER or they are going to repossess my book.

If $34.99 dose not cover the cost raise the unit price. I would not mind if LWD wanted me to pay $10 a month to access all content. I have no idea what price point the market will bear, but I am positive that Paizo, Hasbro, and LWD financial executives have looked long and hard at this question. LWD has the right to price their products however they see fit.

That being said if it was not for the $2.00 fee I would have spend $47.98 this week on Starfinder. As a loyal customer for over 8 years, who has purchased >75% of every data set ever released for Pathfinder; I am emphatically saying I will not pay both. I am willing to pay $34.99 for the Starfinder Core rule data set, I will not pay $514.99 for the same data set. $514.99 comes from 34.99 + $2.00 a month for ten years........Which is how long Pathfinder will have ran prior to second edition coming out. Plus remember that we do not know all the details yet, but in the upcoming content market for Realmworks you will be required to purchase the PDF from Paizo PRIOR to be allowed to purchase the data set from LWD. I do not disagree with this but it is an additional cost, as I have purchased FAR FAR FAR more data sets than books or PDF's. In the past I have purchased every data set but only the books I actually use. In fact having bought the data set has caused me to purchase the PDF so I could use the feat/class feature in organized play.

 

[Toblakai]

I do not dispute any of this. LWD NEEDS to have a pricing system in place that is profitable. What I do have a problem with is paying full retail for a book at my local hobby store for $34.99. Then having the hobby shop charge me $2.00 a month FOREVER or they are going to repossess my book.

If $34.99 dose not cover the cost raise the unit price. I would not mind if LWD wanted me to pay $10 a month to access all content. I have no idea what price point the market will bear, but I am positive that Paizo, Hasbro, and LWD financial executives have looked long and hard at this question. LWD has the right to price their products however they see fit.

That being said if it was not for the $2.00 fee I would have spend $47.98 this week on Starfinder. As a loyal customer for over 8 years, who has purchased >75% of every data set ever released for Pathfinder; I am emphatically saying I will not pay both. I am willing to pay $34.99 for the Starfinder Core rule data set, I will not pay $514.99 for the same data set. $514.99 comes from 34.99 + $2.00 a month for ten years........Which is how long Pathfinder will have ran prior to second edition coming out. Plus remember that we do not know all the details yet, but in the upcoming content market for Realmworks you will be required to purchase the PDF from Paizo PRIOR to be allowed to purchase the data set from LWD. I do not disagree with this but it is an additional cost, as I have purchased FAR FAR FAR more data sets than books or PDF's. In the past I have purchased every data set but only the books I actually use. In fact having bought the data set has caused me to purchase the PDF so I could use the feat/class feature in organized play.

Then don't pay. No one is holding a gun to your head. Jeez.. obviously PF is not the hobby for you if $25/year is too much. I spend more at Starbucks in a week.

 

[daplunk]

I do not dispute any of this. LWD NEEDS to have a pricing system in place that is profitable. What I do have a problem with is paying full retail for a book at my local hobby store for $34.99. Then having the hobby shop charge me $2.00 a month FOREVER or they are going to repossess my book.

The difference here is once you leave the shop you stop using their resources. They rely on continuous traffic through the store to keep themselves running. If the shop turns off the lights it does not impact you until the next time you want to make a purchase.

HLO you purchase the content and then continue to access the service. You continue to use their resources regardless of what part of the world you are in.

If $34.99 dose not cover the cost raise the unit price. I would not mind if LWD wanted me to pay $10 a month to access all content. I have no idea what price point the market will bear, but I am positive that Paizo, Hasbro, and LWD financial executives have looked long and hard at this question. LWD has the right to price their products however they see fit.

LWD are working within the limitations of the license agreement they have signed. They will know the numbers but if the license agreement requires that LWD pay Paizo X amount for every copy of the content provided to each individual customer and they change the model so that every single customer gets access to every single product then I suspect you would find the price sky rocket beyond the means of many people. Until the RPG industry recognise that these services provide an additional benefit to their products and does not discourage customers from purchasing their content in the first place I don't think we will see this happen. And lets be honest, you can play these games without the core books if you have Hero Lab / Realm Works so technically they have something to be concerned about.

I am emphatically saying I will not pay both.

This is something LWD knew before they announced the tool. There was always going to be a % of customers who simply will not sign up to the new model. Honestly we saw a very similar and very loud backlash over the DnDBeyond release. Fast forward a year and the tool is getting more popular by the day. The nay-sayers are opening their wallets and signing up because of the benefit it offers. LWD are trying to position themselves for the current market. HLC is an old market. With people who are stuck in their ways but there's a significant portion of the digital RPG market not using their tool. This is such an intelligent decision by LWD, sure it wont appeal to everyone but it will appeal to a much larger market than exists in HLC today.

Plus remember that we do not know all the details yet, but in the upcoming content market for Realmworks you will be required to purchase the PDF from Paizo PRIOR to be allowed to purchase the data set from LWD. I do not disagree with this but it is an additional cost, as I have purchased FAR FAR FAR more data sets than books or PDF's. In the past I have purchased every data set but only the books I actually use. In fact having bought the data set has caused me to purchase the PDF so I could use the feat/class feature in organized play.

I love this decision by Paizo. I really wish WOTC would follow in their footsteps. Yes it means people will most likely purchase the pdf over the book but that's the direction the market is headed. Again though, nothing LWD can do here but adhere to the terms of the license agreement.

 

[Weissrolf]

Frankly, DnDBeyond is quite different in its offering from HLO. First of all, the basics are free, or rather financed by ads. When you buy packages you still can combine these with the "free" account as long as you don't need more than 6 characters or homebrew content from other users.

Then there is the "Master" tier that allows a GM to share his bought content with all his players in a group. This is one of the questions concerning HLO that I posted earlier, can content packages be shared with others in your gaming group in return for the subscription price?

And even then there still are users who absolutely prefer to get an offline application. Here is a quote from DnDBeyond's own FAQ:

Q: Not having an Android Native app is the only thing holding me back from getting the legendary bundle and master tier subscription.

A: We are certainly working on getting an app ready for our users. Make sure to check the forums on the website for the most up to date information on the app. I promise it is coming!

Someone here suggested that HLO could be offered as a self-hosting server package. That would eliminate all of the ongoing costs while users can run the server on their own hardware, probably even running server and client (browser) on the same machine.

 

[Ian]

Someone here suggested that HLO could be offered as a self-hosting server package. That would eliminate all of the ongoing costs while users can run the server on their own hardware, probably even running server and client (browser) on the same machine.

Unfortunately this one isn't really practical right now, since just porting the server directly wouldn't work for the multiplatform approach we're centering on.

With that said, we've given of thought to having a client-side app version of HLO. The main complication is that it'll be a lot of work to get there, so doing HLO with the current approach let us get something up and running now instead of it taking until Pathfinder 3 to be ready.

 

[alientude]

Then don't pay. No one is holding a gun to your head. Jeez.. obviously PF is not the hobby for you if $25/year is too much. I spend more at Starbucks in a week.

HLC is an old market. With people who are stuck in their ways but there's a significant portion of the digital RPG market not using their tool.

I wonder if you vigorous defenders of HLO understand just how condescending and, frankly, insulting, you are in your defense of HLO. Just because people disagree with the changes made in regards to HLO does not mean they're broke, cheap, or stuck in their ways.

It's not the cost of HLO's subscription that bothers me. It's several things:

1) Useless features - All the features that the subscription supports (Multi-platform support, cloud access, etc.) are useless to me. I don't need to access HL from anything other than my Windows desktop and Windows laptop. I have technology tightly integrated into my games, but none of the benefits of HLO matter to me. It's not that I'm stuck in my old ways, it's that the way I game right now works and the new features will not improve it in any manner.

2) Lack of features - HLO, as it is now, is a crippled version of HL. It doesn't have custom content, doesn't have expected Paizo content (APs), and is basically a player tool, rather than a GM tool. Sure, all those features are promised. But I'm a Kickstarter Realm Works backer. I was promised a lot of features for RW that have never been delivered. Lone Wolf has proven themselves unable to deliver on promised features. Why should I believe them when they say they'll have these features soon? That's been their refrain with RW for years.

3) Uncertain accessibility - Right now, I can fire up HL and know I can access my portfolios as needed no matter what happens. With HLO, what if their server goes down? What if they're doing an update? What if they go out of business? Or any other myriad of things that may interrupt service. Suddenly I would be unable to run my game. With HL, my portfolios are completely under my control, and I can access them whenever. My PC goes down? No big deal, I have them synced to Dropbox and can use my laptop. Even if I couldn't open HL for some reason, I can just open the portfolios with 7zip and extract the stat blocks. I can still play. With HLO, everything is on LW's servers, and if something interrupts their service, I'm screwed.

By the way Toblakai, did you know that PF is actually one of the cheapest hobbies you can find? It's free! You do not have to pay for anything - the rules are available online for free, you can use dice roller apps for free, and you don't need miniatures or maps or anything. The only thing you have to have is Internet access.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I wonder if you vigorous defenders of HLO understand just how condescending and, frankly, insulting, you are in your defense of HLO. Just because people disagree with the changes made in regards to HLO does not mean they're broke, cheap, or stuck in their ways.

Agreed. I was actually going to post something myself but was not sure how to word it. daplunk especially has been getting more and more insulting in posts to anyone that does not agree with him or actually likes the "old" stuff.

New does NOT mean better and OLD does not mean worse. Its actually OK for everyone to like different games and software for different reasons. Someone using or liking HLC is not a worse person and someone using HLO is not a Better Elite person.

HLC does a fantastic job and is proven by how much its used by SO many people world wide. People are upset with HLO because they like HLC as it fulfills all the requirements of that individual and that is great! LW should be proud of that fact and its great that LW is trying trying to support other people with new features of HLO. Its just really sad that a game system can not currently exist in both HLC and HLO.

 

[jkthomsen9]

Its just really sad that a game system can not currently exist in both HLC and HLO.

I agree. I apologize if I offended anyone. I tried hard to state my concerns without attacking anyone. Our supreme court ruled that money IS speech. I am trying to communicate with a company I love that I feel the pay structure is an unfair business practice. So I am trying to use my voice and wallet to enact positive change.

LWD has had the same price schedule for almost a decade. Depending on the size of the file we have paid $34.99, $24.99, $19.99, $14.99, $9.99, $5.99, or $3.99. You have never hear me complain about the cost of any data set. LWD could double or triple these prices and I would not complain, as that would be the price......I would probable be more picky about which ones I got but not complain about the cost.

I understand the intrinsic value of the product I am buying when I purchase a data set. I do not see any value in the $2.00 a month service charge other than to double the price of a standard $24.99 data set every year. It is quite possible that I am wrong, but the $2.00 a month "PAYWALL" feels wrong. I invite LWD to explain this in a way that makes since. If they can GREAT I will get off my soap box and purchase more content. IF they can NOT then perhaps LWD needs to rethink this.

If I have missed the point somewhere please explain it to me.

 

[Toblakai]

By the way Toblakai, did you know that PF is actually one of the cheapest hobbies you can find? It's free! You do not have to pay for anything - the rules are available online for free, you can use dice roller apps for free, and you don't need miniatures or maps or anything. The only thing you have to have is Internet access.

HeroLab is free too? I know no one that plays PF that doesn't own something. I am sure they exist, but they are not on the LWD forums.

 

[Toblakai]

I wonder if you vigorous defenders of HLO understand just how condescending and, frankly, insulting, you are in your defense of HLO. Just because people disagree with the changes made in regards to HLO does not mean they're broke, cheap, or stuck in their ways.

Nope don't see this. People are complaining about the $25/year and at the same time bragging about owning all the HLC PF content. There is a disconnect there.

 

[alientude]

HeroLab is free too? I know no one that plays PF that doesn't own something. I am sure they exist, but they are not on the LWD forums.

You said PF is not the hobby for you if you can't afford $25/year. Nothing about PF requires HL.

Go ahead and keep condescending to people who think paying $25/year for access to features they don't want and have no use for is a bad idea. The fact that you have use for those features clearly makes you a superior person.

 

[daplunk]

I'm not trying to offend anyone. Just trying to bring some logic to the discussion. Everyone in all variations of this type of conversation regardless of which company and tool it is always gets angry at the software developer. But they aren't in control of the situation. The RPG industry is designed around the licensing model and the people wanting to play in this market need to adhere to those licensing agreements.

And I agree, HLO is not going to offer value for everyone. But quite simply there is a larger portion of the market out there that they are trying to appeal to. That is a sound and logical business move.

 

[Toblakai]

The fact that you have use for those features clearly makes you a superior person.

Yes it does, I am glad you agree.

 

[jkthomsen9]

Nope don't see this. People are complaining about the $25/year and at the same time bragging about owning all the HLC PF content. There is a disconnect there.

I agree there is a disconnect. I do not care if it is $0.25 or $25,000. I was not bragging, but stating that MANY LWD customers have purchased a lot of data sets over the last eight years. I am actually counting on LWD being an integral part of my gaming table ten years from now. I have not questioned the value of paying 34.99 for the core rulebook. I have questioned the 2 dollars a month. I have asked the simple question of "What intrinsic value do we as customers get for $24.00 a year?". I was hoping to instigate actual dialogue where my concerns were addressed. Instead i have received insults.

Rob I do not know you well but we have meet more than once. I have always felt you are a stand up guy. Can you please explain what value I as your customer will receive for my subscription fee. I have explained that to me if it is a "paygate" to access content I have bought, that that feels morally corrupt. I am hopping there is a better explanation.

 

[Toblakai]

Rob I do not know you well but we have meet more than once. I have always felt you are a stand up guy. Can you please explain what value I as your customer will receive for my subscription fee. I have explained that to me if it is a "paygate" to access content I have bought, that that feels morally corrupt. I am hopping there is a better explanation.

The money is to keep the servers running they don't pay for themselves, and they need to keep running even after the game system is deprecated (I am looking at you PF).

HLO benefits (some items are coming soon.. there is a not so great track record here though):

Sharing portfolios during game play, this will allow buffs/debuffs to be applied and updated for all at the same time. I use the tactical console and would really like this now!
Shared loot and equipment tracking.
Shared starships.
View multiple characters in different tabs. The current system in HLC is a bit clunky and slow.
Play anywhere on any device
More I can't think of right now (read other threads for this).

UI customization is also A LOT easier so things like selecting multiple characters and applying a buff/debuff to them at the same time is more likely.

 

[Weissrolf]

Is there a game-master tier subscription that allows a GM to share with players who did not subscribe?

What happens exactly to your account when subscription runs out? I read that you can "get your character out". Does that mean printing or exporting? Are any other functions available?

Are any of these money/account related questions answered in an easy to find manner on the web-page, or are possible (if available) answers hidden somewhere deep in one of the ongoing forum threads?

Why is the "Hero Lab Online and Starfinder Q&A" thread not placed in the "Hero Lab Online" sub-forum, but in the "Hero Lab" (Classic) one?

Why is the "Hero Lab Online FAQ" thread not places in the "Hero Lab Online" sub-forum, but in the "Hero Lab" (Classic) one? And why do I first have to find that thread in order to find the official FAQ?

Why is Hero Lab Online not listed under "Products" or "Support" on the main web-site? Is it still in Beta?

 

[EightBitz]

Nope don't see this. People are complaining about the $25/year and at the same time bragging about owning all the HLC PF content. There is a disconnect there.

There is no disconnect. There are various considerations.

When I'm earning a paycheck, I can usually afford to buy some data packages here and there and slowly build my catalog. But I can also choose when to do that. It's not an obligation. If money is tight one month, due to unexpected car repairs or medical expenses or whatever, I can pass on spending anything on entertainment, and I lose no access to what I've already purchased.

When I'm not earning a paycheck, things are tight EVERY month. The only money I spend on entertainment, I spend to keep my sanity. What I choose not to spend, I lose no access to what I've already purchased.

With HLO, you are obliged to spend money, whether it's tight or not, or you lose access to what you've already purchased.

 

[Toblakai]

There is no disconnect. There are various considerations.

When I'm earning a paycheck, I can usually afford to buy some data packages here and there and slowly build my catalog. But I can also choose when to do that. It's not an obligation. If money is tight one month, due to unexpected car repairs or medical expenses or whatever, I can pass on spending anything on entertainment, and I lose no access to what I've already purchased.

When I'm not earning a paycheck, things are tight EVERY month. The only money I spend on entertainment, I spend to keep my sanity. What I choose not to spend, I lose no access to what I've already purchased.

With HLO, you are obliged to spend money, whether it's tight or not, or you lose access to what you've already purchased.

I understand this, but some of the people complaining also don't seem to have a problem affording $25/yr. Unfortunately for the people that can't afford it, they will have to live with pcgen for starfinder or wait until they decide to port it to HLC.

I am really looking forward to the features that an online tool can do that a desktop one can't and for Pathfinder to be released for it. I haven't bought HLO because I don't play Starfinder yet (have about 6 PF adventure paths i am in the middle of that I need to finish first).

Tech moves at a fast pace and LWD needs to keep up or lose ground.

 

[EightBitz]

I understand this, but some of the people complaining also don't seem to have a problem affording $25/yr. Unfortunately for the people that can't afford it, they will have to live with pcgen for starfinder or wait until they decide to port it to HLC.

I am really looking forward to the features that an online tool can do that a desktop one can't and for Pathfinder to be released for it. I haven't bought HLO because I don't play Starfinder yet (have about 6 PF adventure paths i am in the middle of that I need to finish first).

Tech moves at a fast pace and LWD needs to keep up or lose ground.

Another factor, for me personally, is subscription fatigue. When I'm earning a decent paycheck, I don't mind paying for a subscription or two. But when they start adding up, even if the money isn't an issue, the number of subscriptions I have to track and manage starts becoming an issue. And based on that, I'll start setting priorities, and paring down on the lower priority subscriptions, regardless of how low the cost might be.

Spotify
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Antivirus
Hulu
MS Office
Roll20

If it's beneficial to my job, I might also subscribe to:
Microsoft Azure
Office 365 for Small Businesses
Certain other professional sites for research, collaboration and ongoing training and education.

It starts to get ridiculous after a while.

 

[Dervish]

I am curious as to exactly what feature Hero Lab Classic is missing that you believe Hero Lab Online will mystically manifest.