Help with a 2E power build please....

[atlarman]

Hi all

I am wondering if anyone can help me figure out how to do this in HL, i'm trying to incoperate a flamethrower-like effect into my character's device...after reading through the powers section I decide "blast"w/a "fire" discriptor is and a cone area extra are my best bets. as "element control" as written states you can only direct and shape the said element.

The problem comes in with the range of blast being "ranged" i figured for balance and more realism the range should be "extended" but just 1 rank thus giving a fixed range of 10 ft.
however i discover in HL upon trying to do this that i can only add 1 rank of the range extra(giving perception range) instead of the 2 ranks i need for extended range . is there a way around this?/or perhaps another way to achieve a flat 10' range??

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Hi all

I am wondering if anyone can help me figure out how to do this in HL, i'm trying to incoperate a flamethrower-like effect into my character's device...after reading through the powers section I decide "blast"w/a "fire" discriptor is and a cone area extra are my best bets. as "element control" as written states you can only direct and shape the said element.

The problem comes in with the range of blast being "ranged" i figured for balance and more realism the range should be "extended" but just 1 rank thus giving a fixed range of 10 ft.
however i discover in HL upon trying to do this that i can only add 1 rank of the range extra(giving perception range) instead of the 2 ranks i need for extended range . is there a way around this?/or perhaps another way to achieve a flat 10' range??

First off, I think you are 100% to have a fire descriptor. I also note that you want it at Rank 5.

Having it ranged means the "cone of fire" can have it's origin point "over there" (50 ft range increments (to be taken into consideration if the GM wants a Ranged Attack Roll to place the Origin Point in the hex desired thus the culmulative -2 could come into play), with the maximum distance away from the character for the origin point being 500 ft (and if the GM is calling for it, a -18 penalty to hit the hex due to the extra 9 increments of range)) when you really want the cone to start at your character...since it sounds like you want a realistic flamethrower. So, first I'd suggest either putting the Power Flaw: Range on it to knock it down to Touch OR what I think would be a more accurate solution, instead of Blast you base it off of Damage (U.P. page 38 - specifically the Area write-up).

Unfortunately, while this will have the Cone start at your character as desired, the length will still be shown on screen/the sheet as greater than what you desire due to the M&M game mechanic. I'd suggest having a Custom Power Flaw stating that the Cone doesn't go farther than two hexes (aka 10 ft) from the character instead of the 10 hexes (length) it would normally affect. Up to the GM if this would only be worth -1pp/rank or if it should be valued at -2pp/rank or be a mean GM and say it is just a straight-up -1pp Power Drawback.

Just my two cents worth,
Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer.

 

[atlarman]

Thanks Nigel ... ill give that a try....i still cant believe a person couldnt do and extended range extra at 1 rank. lol

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Thanks Nigel ... ill give that a try....i still cant believe a person couldnt do and extended range extra at 1 rank. lol

Well, I obviously didn't have my thinking cap on because I completely forgot about the Power Feat: Decrease Area Extra.

Buy 4 levels of that Power Feat and you can reduce the AoE Cone to rank 1. Since all Power Feats, unlike Power Extras, have the option of being used or not used with each application of the power, you simply have to "forget" to use the the Cone at the full 50 ft. length.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[Duggan]

The penalty for decreased area for greater effects is by design. According to Steve Kenson, areas become larger as they become more powerful, also meaning that unleashing a full-power attack becomes more difficult without causing collateral damage. On the boards, the house rule suggestion has been made periodically to allow for a +0 Extra to set the area at a lower value to emulate a blast which is naturally smaller and therefore cannot be expanded without adding additional feats. It's all up to how much you feel the reduced area changes the situation.

Extended Range only works on touch-range powers. Here, it would let you start the cone up to 5 feet out. Dunno if that's what you intend.

 

[atlarman]

to nigel-

ha thanks for the decreased area thing i went back and used this..... however... hl does not seem to take into account the new area in its printout lol something to bring to colen's attn i guess.

As a side note.... if it were not for the cone area....extended reach 2 woulda WORKED PERFECTLY! who knew fire could be so complicated eh?? lol

 

[atlarman]

@ duggan um dont ya mean extended reach is for touch range powers?? it would make more sense to say extended range is for effects already w/at least ranged range and extended reach is for touch range attacks. unless im totally missing something.
Which is possible lol

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

to nigel-

ha thanks for the decreased area thing i went back and used this..... however... hl does not seem to take into account the new area in its printout lol something to bring to colen's attn i guess.

As a side note.... if it were not for the cone area....extended reach 2 woulda WORKED PERFECTLY! who knew fire could be so complicated eh?? lol

I too thought at first that it might be a "bug" that the Cone's area still reads as 50 ft.

However, the fact that a Power Feat, unlike a Power Extra, doesn't have to be in effect with every use of the Power, the software has no way of knowing when the PF is "on" or "off."

So it makes sense to me to have the printout display the "full" extent of the power just in case the player decides to turn "off" the PF: Decreased Area Extra when his character uses it. Now is that what Colen & the gang were thinking when they wrote the software? I dunno.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

@ duggan um dont ya mean extended reach is for touch range powers?? it would make more sense to say extended range is for effects already w/at least ranged range and extended reach is for touch range attacks. unless im totally missing something.
Which is possible lol

LOL I have been trying very hard today to not climb onto my "range" soapbox today. I can see I'm doomed to return to this topic later this evening since Colen didn't fix it in the latest Beta version.

Anyway, Power Feat: Extended Reach is only for Touch-ranged Powers. PF: Improved Range increases the range increment and PF: Progression, Increase Range increases the maximum range of any Power.

Duggan is completely correct that you can use PF: Extended Reach if you buy your flamethrower as Damage (page 38 of Ultimate Power) with AoE: Cone and not as a Blast with AoE: Cone.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer.

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

The penalty for decreased area for greater effects is by design. According to Steve Kenson, areas become larger as they become more powerful, also meaning that unleashing a full-power attack becomes more difficult without causing collateral damage. On the boards, the house rule suggestion has been made periodically to allow for a +0 Extra to set the area at a lower value to emulate a blast which is naturally smaller and therefore cannot be expanded without adding additional feats. It's all up to how much you feel the reduced area changes the situation.

Extended Range only works on touch-range powers. Here, it would let you start the cone up to 5 feet out. Dunno if that's what you intend.

For one campaign I am in, my GM seems to think (talking 2E rules here) that a General-type AoE makes things too easy for us so, as a House Rule, it costs double (so we add a Custom Power Extra citing the HR. This has somewhat backfired as the two "worst offenders" - myself and his wife - don't mind lowering the Power Rank of our attacks in order to offset the increase cost since those attack modes are very much in keeping with our character concepts and we don't mind that we will sometimes be frustrated by our team mates rushing into the line of fire....and sometimes we'll light them up too....hey, they were warned it could happen. lol) he doesn't consider the possible collateral damage a factor since that is never really addressed in our games. He allows the Targeted-type of AoE to be normal cost. *shrug* Yet in another campaign he allows both General and Targeted to be "by the book" cost but disallows the Power Feats: Progression, Increase AoE Area Extra and Progression, Decrease AoE Area Extra.

I have no idea how he's going to react to the way 3E, unless I've missed something, makes all AoE the General-type as it had been pre-Ultimate Power.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[atlarman]

Nigel-

Ok there has been so much back and forth on this that now im cofused lol. WOULD ya mind giving my character the once over paying particular attn to the "dragon's breath" power? - thats the flamethrower-like effect.

while there also please look over the incendiary round build (explosive ammo) Thanks i Apreciate it.

 

[Duggan]

So it makes sense to me to have the printout display the "full" extent of the power just in case the player decides to turn "off" the PF: Decreased Area Extra when his character uses it. Now is that what Colen & the gang were thinking when they wrote the software? I dunno.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

^_^ Try this. They're separate extras so that you don't run into errors when sharing heroes. If you want them to replace the regular Area options, just move the text from the Author Comments into the Replaces Thing Id field. It allows Decreased Area beyond the number of ranks, but otherwise, it's pretty serviceable.

 

[JDRook]

Nigel-

Ok there has been so much back and forth on this that now im cofused lol. WOULD ya mind giving my character the once over paying particular attn to the "dragon's breath" power? - thats the flamethrower-like effect.

while there also please look over the incidiary round build (explosive ammo) Thanks i Apreciate it.

@atlarman - I took a look at the PDF of your powers and here's my two cents:

- you currently have Dragon's Breath as Damage 6: Fire, DC 21; Cone Area (60 ft. cone - General); Extended Reach 2 (10 ft.); Lethal, Full Power (Standard (Active) - Touch, 10ft. - Instant). In use this means that a 60' cone of lethal full power fire could be launched from the power gauntlet or from up to 10' from it, and I gather this isn't your intention. Power Feat: Decrease Area is an option, but it sounds like you don't want the flame to be able to extend beyond 10' ever, and since everything else about the power is fixed (can't be non-lethal, can't use less than full power) it makes more sense to me that the 10' limit simply be a Custom Drawback (Only 10' cone) valued at 1-3 points, depending on your GM.

- your Incendiary Round is written as Blast 5: Ballistic, DC 20; Explosion Area (50 ft. explosion - Targeted); Progression, Decr. Area Extra 3 (-3 ranks); Lethal, Full Power (Standard (Active) - Ranged, 50ft. - Instant). This is a little trickier to follow, but presumably it's similar to the Dragon's Breath, in that it's a fixed Area Effect that is much smaller than the default size for that rank. I'd recommend the same solution as for the Breath above and use a Custom Drawback (Only 20' radius Explosion) or whatever size you were aiming for, again at 1-3 points depending on your GM.

In both cases you want the powers to be not quite as flexible as standard powers, so in my opinion you deserve a few points back for that, which is why I think the Custom Drawback is a better choice than the Progression: Decrease Area Feat. On the other hand, I think a full Flaw is too much, considering you're still getting a lot of damage and pretty good coverage out of the powers.

So my interpretation on those two powers would be:

Dragon's Breath (Damage 6) (fire, DC 21; Cone Area (60 ft. cone - General); Lethal, Full Power, Custom (Only 10' cone)) - 9pp
Incendiary Round (Blast 5) (ballistic, DC 20; Explosion Area (50 ft. explosion - Targeted); Lethal, Full Power, Custom (Only 10' radius explosion)) - 12pp

which should do everything you want for a little cheaper points-wise. Then again, looking at the rest of your sheet, the points look pretty "freeform", so that may not be an issue for you.

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

@atlarman - I took a look at the PDF of your powers and here's my two cents:

...So my interpretation on those two powers would be:

Dragon's Breath (Damage 6) (fire, DC 21; Cone Area (60 ft. cone - General); Lethal, Full Power, Custom (Only 10' cone)) - 9pp
Incendiary Round (Blast 5) (ballistic, DC 20; Explosion Area (50 ft. explosion - Targeted); Lethal, Full Power, Custom (Only 10' radius explosion)) - 12pp

which should do everything you want for a little cheaper points-wise. Then again, looking at the rest of your sheet, the points look pretty "freeform", so that may not be an issue for you.

Well said JDRook. I completely agree with both your analysis and your recommendation.

Atlarman, a most interesting character. The GM for the two campaigns I'm currently in wouldn't allow Dragonmaster into either one...lol...and yes, you should take that as a compliment.

Oh, and having noticed the "Player Name" I'm a bit surprised to see you are still alive...can I have your autograph?

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[Duggan]

What, no comment on the rules file?

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

What, no comment on the rules file?

Haven't looked at it yet. Perhaps once I've finished eating my pizza.

 

[atlarman]

TO JD Rook;

First thing I'd like to say is thank you for taking a look at the power builds and taking the time to break them down in such detail....It realy helped to be able to bounce it off someone- this fourum, its members,LWD and HERO LAB ARE AWESOME! Dont get me wrong I enjoy gaming w/my current (and 20+ year)GM ,but , when it comes to technical help.... not much luck there lol( if anything I spend most of my time HELPING HIM w/ his builds(i also GM 4 his pcs) AS for your advice.... I used your take for "Dragons Breath" However after researching modern incindiary rounds my gm in his infinate wisdom decided that theres no need to reduce the explosion area( so thats a whopping 50' area explosion from a wrist fired round....oooook thats the last time i try to self censor or balance my characters lol id have been happy at a 20' area but who am i to argue lol

 

[atlarman]

Well said JDRook. I completely agree with both your analysis and your recommendation.

Atlarman, a most interesting character. The GM for the two campaigns I'm currently in wouldn't allow Dragonmaster into either one...lol...and yes, you should take that as a compliment.

Oh, and having noticed the "Player Name" I'm a bit surprised to see you are still alive...can I have your autograph?

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

First off Nigal thanks for the complement.... too many people GMs in particular simply dismiss the character out of hand after seeing the pp total. I can understand this IF the charater was to be played in a pc group but 90% of the time he is in a solo 1 on 1 game.

As for the freebie devices....my gm and i agreed that this was the only way to give him his "wonderful toys" and still maintain campaign level 10 (why hes stuck on pl 10... im not sure but eh hes the GM lol)

 

[atlarman]

also @ nigel:

btw for the record it was my GMs desire to kill the pp limit- when he simply could not seem to build his martial artist to his liking with 150 pp so we decided to ignore point total while upholding pl limits.
Anyway im glad you find DM intesting...personally i cant wait to import him to DCA since the character paralels Batman in concept and tone

Lastly, about my autograph," sure you're most welcome to it...not sure how good it would be though....btw if youre shocked to see me alive .....imagine my shock a few years ago - waking up to news reports that "I" had died...lol

 

[atlarman]

One last thing, I'm most curious to Know if my characters powers are coming across correctly off of the page....it Should br evedent that the gauntlets are invented (yes i did select that- I have no clue why that isnt being printed out in its block lol) Technology, essentially powered armor that is able to launch many types of ammo ( reflected as its various ALT PWRs....This is supposed to be an "array" of ammo. except for "electrical control" which of course is an actual current discharge able to dazzle and confuse targets @ range as well as animate simple machines... and a touch range stun. Its my hope that all this is apparent from the sheet. I welcome helpful thoughts and suggestions . thanks { color}