Help with a 2E power build please....

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

I think what you intend is pretty clear BUT I do have one question: why is the Incendiary (yes, with an 'e' not an 'i') Round a 'Targeted' Explosion?

Does it throw out flechettes, ala a cluster bomb, at a high rate of speed or a fireball that detonates so fast no-one could leap out of the way...and let's be honest, if one isn't using the 'Tactical Movement' option from the Mastermind's Manual then it's pretty pathetic if a superpowered foe can't get out of a 50ft explosion in a single Move Action (presuming one is following the convention that if you REF Save then you have to actually move the miniature a number of hexes equal to or less than what he could cover in a single move)...and thus a target wouldn't have a chance to REF Save out of the way/lessen the damage and his Defense is the primary consideration if he gets hurt?

Is it a Targeted AoE just to avoid the possibility that a good REF Save and/or use of Evasion would protect the target from harm? If so, that's a little cheesy and I think, just my two cents worth, that you should make it a General AoE.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[atlarman]

Thanks Nigel...

I'll consider changing the AoE as you suggest....no i wasnt thinking of any tactical movement rules when i made it the way i did .I was going under the impression that a successful reflex save would mean either no damage or simply a bruised condition (depending on how lethal th GM WANTS the game.)regaurdless of the distance one would have to cover and besides who says avoided damage has to mean the target cleared the entire blast area?? perharps he was able too tuck and roll enough to avoid serious harm lol

My thought behind targeted AoE was simply aim at a point on the map and fire as per the description in the book.....i thought this would best fit an Incendiary round- exspecially one w/high explosives. I apologize If im missing something rules wise. thats why im seeking help and imput.

also thanks for pointing out the very embarrassing spelling error I shall fix it as soon as I finish here.

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

Thanks Nigel...

... and besides who says avoided damage has to mean the target cleared the entire blast area?? perharps he was able too tuck and roll enough to avoid serious harm lol

...

No need to apologize, you aren't doing anything outside what the rules allow. I was just curious about why 'Targeted' and not 'General'.

Speaking of General-Type AoE, what you describe above about doing the old 'tuck & roll' or when someone dives under a table/behind the sofa to avoid the blast.....that sure sounds like a REF Save to me.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[atlarman]

Yeah the tuck and roll thing was meant to describe a ref save.... so i gather that youre saying then that a tageted AoE DOESNT allow foir a save for characters caught in the area?? ok clearly i need to re read targeted AoE again. the explosive round IS intended to be fast but not SO fast that no save is allowed....hmm i need to think about this more... cause i do need to consider realistic explosive effects vs cinematic. the jury is out- i'll let you know lol

As for "super powered "foes....if i DO decide targeted AOE is the way to go, hopefully their defense will be enough to help them, if not perhaps the villan isnt so "supe"r after all (only joking...as a hero im thinking DM wouldnt use such a powerful attack against a foe if they couldnt survive it or the danger of the situation didnt warrant it.....one would HOPE- then again heroes are human too thus subject to fits of anger and poor judgement - God Help the street slime of freedom city!!! (haha)

 

[JDRook]

also @ nigel:

btw for the record it was my GMs desire to kill the pp limit- when he simply could not seem to build his martial artist to his liking with 150 pp so we decided to ignore point total while upholding pl limits...

There's nothing wrong with that in my book. I usually create characters in HL using the NPC setting (Character > Configure Hero > Create NPC). That way I can play around with unlimited points and HL tells me the power level as I fiddle around. Of course, normally I just play around with character concepts and try to find the PL I think works best for them, so this system works well for me.

You may want to consider building Dragon Master in Hero Lab with the NPC setting on, atlarman.

 

[atlarman]

I would JD but my GM while not caring about the pp total, for some reason known only to him at this time seems MARRIED to campaign level 10 haha

I agree that theres nothing wrong w/ fudging pp totals in favor of concepts....among willing gms and experoenced players.... I only mentioned it because ive taken alot of (mostly good natured) "crap" ov laterit was only er D master's pp total haha

** oops I actually forgot this but at the time i created him i was trying to stick to the 150 pp total- thus the reason 4 the GM APROVED freebies lol...as i recall it was shortly after I had proudly completed my 150 point build that my wise and benevalent GM decided he'd rather ignore pp total outright....god love him. If its not for the fact that i managed to hit the 150 sweet spot, id be tempted to go back and tweak the areas where i intentionally left him a tad under powered but then again....character advancement has to count for something...right??
*** btw to anyone whos interested - on my 1st pass at this character his equipment wasnt 'free"- it was only later after i realized that an HQ was more important that i made his mundane gear free in favor of buying his HQ.

 

[atlarman]

Nigel -

I went back last night and reviewed the differences between GENERAL AoE and Targeted AoE and after our posts the other day, I FULLY expected to come across something of an 'A HA' moment that would completely show me that your' suggestion of general AoE was a better way to go for the Incendiary Round. The truth is I see a legit case can be made for both types...what it comes down to is as i read it do you see the reflex save as a resonable or plausable measure in this case. the answer there is yes to both .HOWEVER as i read further i see that the normal TOUGHNESS SAVE STILL APPLIES IN both types so ref save is just an additional safegaurd from damage not the only one given this fact and the need to overcome a target defense as well i have to say that at this time given the size and speed of the attack that i do not see Enough to make the change to general AoE needed beyond all doubt. so much like the NFL referee's favorite justification due to lack of conclusive or definative info....rhe original ruling on the feild -or in this case, the build on the sheet stands. (wink)

 

[charlieluce]

One thing we learned in our post-UP games was that in terms of effectiveness Targeted Areas are almost always better than General Areas; not only do you get to use your Attack/Damage trade-off (great for the minion-sweeping that Area is often used for), but you get to avoid those near-impossible to reduce Reflex saves and the nigh-partial-immunity of Evasion in favor of the much easier to mess with Defense score. We ruled that Target Areas couldn't Critical Hit, but I don't think that's actually in the rules, so if your GM allows that it's even better.

You do have the disadvantage that you'll likely miss the potential targets that are Concealed, though.

 

[atlarman]

actually I do believe the "no crit" rule IS mentioned in targeted area UP Page 110
(I think) For all those interested.... I did pose the situation of targeted vs. general AoE to my GM . Im currently awaiting his take on it and Im perfectly willing to go w/ general AoE if in his judgement its better for the game. I am however, in the absense of any clear rules violation,expecting his usual NON DECISION lol (sigh)

 

[atlarman]

TO Nigel-

I meant to ask this earlier on ....Am I correct in assuming the reasons your GM wouldnt allow DM in either of his games is all the "freebies"?

I guess I can understand how some could find that upsetting in a group situation.

I'm just curious as to his reasoning for dis allowing the character out of hand.:

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

One thing we learned in our post-UP games was that in terms of effectiveness Targeted Areas are almost always better than General Areas; not only do you get to use your Attack/Damage trade-off (great for the minion-sweeping that Area is often used for), but you get to avoid those near-impossible to reduce Reflex saves and the nigh-partial-immunity of Evasion in favor of the much easier to mess with Defense score. We ruled that Target Areas couldn't Critical Hit, but I don't think that's actually in the rules, so if your GM allows that it's even better.

You do have the disadvantage that you'll likely miss the potential targets that are Concealed, though.

My current GM HATES General AoE precisely because it's a minion-sweeper. For a short time I had Wayfarer using a ranged Drain vs REF Save (as well as their Rng Atk Mod & Acrobatics Skill ) against the super-dodge/acrobatic type foes to knock down them down a peg or two before using the General-type AoE but that was just adding a layer of complexity (as the GM now had to track who had their REF Save reduced if it worked) and usually meant the battle was over thanks to my team mates before I ever got to unleash the AoE.

So now I've just resigned myself that the General-type AoE is just not going to work against the Evasive/super DEXtrous. *sigh*

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

There's nothing wrong with that in my book. I usually create characters in HL using the NPC setting (Character > Configure Hero > Create NPC). That way I can play around with unlimited points and HL tells me the power level as I fiddle around. Of course, normally I just play around with character concepts and try to find the PL I think works best for them, so this system works well for me.

You may want to consider building Dragon Master in Hero Lab with the NPC setting on, atlarman.

In the games I'm in we are have kept the PL set at a certain level but still award Power Points so I don't see anything wrong with that. In a way it's a good thing since it "forces" one to spend those points elsewhere, like Character Feats, Skills, etc. if you've already set your powers at the PL-limits.

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

TO Nigel-

I meant to ask this earlier on ....Am I correct in assuming the reasons your GM wouldnt allow DM in either of his games is all the "freebies"?

I guess I can understand how some could find that upsetting in a group situation.

I'm just curious as to his reasoning for dis allowing the character out of hand.:

LOL Oh, no. The reason he'd disallow Dragon Master is because you have too much darn variety in what you can do (Wayfarer already drives him crazy in that department) and you have done this by having things "at such a low rank" (again, that's how Wayfarer could afford his variety).

Our GM is used to all the other players pushing their two or three "attack" Powers to the PL limit and thus he sees them as easy to manage...and plan for.

Characters like Dragon Master and Wayfarer, who are designed to be flexible & deal with just about any situation, make it hard for him to "design a challenging scenario." lol

I can't speak for you but I tend to find any scenario challenging partly from trying to handle things as the character would even if I, as a player, can clearly see that what he's about to do isn't the most efficient way OR might even make things worse for the team and partly because having a large variety of responses to choose from, it can be hard to decide which to use.

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[atlarman]

you're spot on nigel... i find the character driven stuff the most interesting and challenging personally, i find meta or power gamers more frustarting to deal with as a GM... usually those that are character driven tend to police themselves balance wise very well.

P.S.- I had to add this thought....If your Gm were to be honest, Is it REALLY THAT HARD to create "challenging" encounters large array of powers/choices or not?? when you consider that npcs/ villans arent strickly bound to any limits at all- sounds like your gm has found his comfort zone and gotten a tad lazy .( Guess its good to be the GM haha)

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

you're spot on nigel... i find the character driven stuff the most interesting and challenging personally, i find meta or power gamers more frustarting to deal with as a GM... usually those that are character driven tend to police themselves balance wise very well.

P.S.- I had to add this thought....If your Gm were to be honest, Is it REALLY THAT HARD to create "challenging" encounters large array of powers/choices or not?? when you consider that npcs/ villans arent strickly bound to any limits at all- sounds like your gm has found his comfort zone and gotten a tad lazy .( Guess its good to be the GM haha)

Just to publicly set the record straight: I think the guy GM'ing the two games I am in does a fine job both adjudicating things for the motley crew that are on the hero team rosters and that he has big, detailed, long term story arcs within his game universe....as one would expect, a blend of DC, Marvel and his own creations.

It's just that in terms of this Forum, my "complaints" and the rules.....I think 2E M&M works best when all of the rules are in play since the system is so "interlocked" and he likes making House Rules that selectively modify or remove things. That is his right as GM to do so, however, I feel that this "solution" often accidentally gives an advantage to one or two characters that others don't get and it sometimes leads to new House Rules to "fix" the unforeseen ripple-effect caused by the initial House Rule.

To his credit, he has become better about announcing his displeasure with a thing, saying what House Rule he plans to do to "fix" it and getting our feedback before either doing it, modifying the proposed House Rule or dropping the H.R. altogether once he's shown that there really isn't a problem.

Bottom line for my fellow Forum members: he's a good guy so please don't take my "complaints" as a condemnation of him as a GM.

Nigel Fogg, the Wayfarer

 

[atlarman]

I didnt mean for My comments to be a total condemnation of your gms skills.... only a statement of my limited opniion on how his policy on diverse character design comes across... from what ya wrote above I envy ya nigel...id love to have a regular GM w/ that much vision and attention to detail.