Pathfinder Community Packs

[Krothos]

Sorry for the confusion. Was in a bit of a hurry writing my previous post.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Guess I am going to need more information. I just tried out the adjustment and it seems to be working fine.

Is your issue that I made the adjustment "one" thing instead of two? Cause making it be two different activations for Overhand/Backswing seems pointless. From the point of view of HL they do the exact same thing.

I guess this is more to the Backswing. The 1st attack of the full-attack shouldn't receive the 2x Str modifier. For example, let's say this 11th level 2-handed fighter has 20 Str. Not considering other modifiers for the 3 attacks received during a full-attack, the bonus to damage based on Str would be +7/+10/+10. As it is enabled now, the bonus is +10/+10/+10.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

HL has no way of understanding Full-Round vs Standard Action. So I see no use in making two different activation when the script logic is "exactly" the same which is 2x Str damage instead of 1.5x Str. Its up to the player to know if they are making a Full-Attack or a Standard Action attack. Which really only seems to matter at level 6.

Doesn't HL already "understand" a single attack action when Vital Strike is enabled? So, couldn't that be the same with Overhand Chop? Overhand Chop is only 1 attack. Backswing is full-round attacks.

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Sense I made the adjustment to help out the community it makes perfect sense that it only exists in the community Pack. I am totally lost on what your trying to say here?

I hope this clears it up.

[Ualaa]

Within the Shadow adjustments, there is an option for 'Force Single Attack'.

Not sure if it is worth the effort...
But one could 'Force Single Attack', and give the bonus for Overhand Chop, when a Fighter is at the levels where they don't have iterative attacks.
And then remove the 'Force Single' restriction, once they hit both BAB +6 and Backswing, since now the extra damage applies to both First Swing and Full-Attack action.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Krothos

I guess this is more to the Backswing. The 1st attack of the full-attack shouldn't receive the 2x Str modifier. For example, let's say this 11th level 2-handed fighter has 20 Str. Not considering other modifiers for the 3 attacks received during a full-attack, the bonus to damage based on Str would be +7/+10/+10. As it is enabled now, the bonus is +10/+10/+10.

And how would I show that? Damage is listed "one" time for a weapon. If I list +7/+10/+10 then on the iPad it will roll damage and add +27. Which is why I am back to the idea the player has to have some knowledge of how his character works. They will need to turn off/on the option depending on which "attack" or the number of attacks they are making. Though these "fiddly" abilities I wish Paizo would stop making but that is a rant all in itself.

Even making use of the "extra" damage logic its still just 'one' time list of damage.

Would having it say the following assuming 18 Str greatsword be helpful?
2d6+6 plus 2 on iterative attacks
That to me seems like more "clutter" than its worth on a higher level character could look like this:
2d6+6 plus 2 on iterative attacks plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid

Originally Posted by Krothos

Doesn't HL already "understand" a single attack action when Vital Strike is enabled? So, couldn't that be the same with Overhand Chop? Overhand Chop is only 1 attack. Backswing is full-round attacks.

I can force a single attack to be displayed yes. But that is still not HL understanding standard action vs full round. And doesn't the issue only exist for "one" level when the character is level 6. At that point they get two attacks and if they make two attacks just turn off the overhand chop. Just like it has to be turned off for when making an AoO.

I personally do not see having two different activation (one for Overhand and one for Backswing) and forcing a single attack to really be helpful. If others disagree I can code it that way but is it just adding complexity for complexity sake? Plus the more activations really get cluttered with higher level characters. Which is why in my mind having one single activation to turn on/off is much easier to deal with in the long run.

I am hesitant to add "force" of a single attack to stuff because people do have houserules. And I hate messing or "forcing" RAW on to any group actually. Many groups are most likely adding the 2x Str to all attacks because it would be MUCH easier to track (or they mis-read the ability). I am trying to make sure these extra "tools" are easy to use under lots of situations.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Ualaa

Not sure if it is worth the effort...
But one could 'Force Single Attack', and give the bonus for Overhand Chop,

That was what I keep thinking also. Is it really worth it for BAB +6 characters?

Originally Posted by Ualaa

Backswing, since now the extra damage applies to both First Swing and Full-Attack action.

The fiddly part of Backswing is that it does not apply the damage to the first attack only the iterative attacks.

This by the way is "exactly" why HL never coded this ability in the first place.

[Krothos]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

That was what I keep thinking also. Is it really worth it for BAB +6 characters?

FYI, Backswing is gained at 7th level

In your 18 Str 2-handed fighter wielding greatsword using Backswing would have the following damage output: 2d6+6/2d6+9. I listed "+7/+10/+10" in my previous example only to be eco-friendly to electrons (my bad lol ).

I do agree with you about how much clutter we want in our software. High level characters can get quite messy, especially since the font size doesn't change/wrap. And agree with how you would think most other groups would probably just use that adjustment as it's currently coded for ease of play. But then again (sorry if it seems I'm splitting hairs here; minor in the grand scheme of things lol ) you added all of your adjustments so we can add our house rules to our game.

THANK YOU! for all your work in the Community Pack. I probably would have ditched HL for some Excel spreadsheet if it wasn't for all of your available adjustments. Instead I have put my car up as collateral so I could have all the HL PF licenses.

[Krothos]

Dup/deleted

[ShadowChemosh]

To be "clear" I am not arguing or saying your ideas are bad. I am trying to figure out within the "limitations" of HL what I can do to fix it. Also what exactly you would like as a solution. And then can I make something that works within the given limitations. One of these limitations is time. If the change/fix requires me to spend many hours to do than I have to weigh that against how many other "fixes" can I do in the same amount of time. Do I fix one Thing that "works" (its not perfect) and ignore several things that actually do NOT work at all?

This is the fun when you get into this spot. Everyone forgets about the "whole" picture and the LIST of issues for broken stuff I should be fixing. Currently at 44 open issues.

And the final limitation is that I do not have control over the UI part of HL. I know I can do allot of stuff that makes it look like I can. But the truth somethings stop me cold. Adjusting individual iterative attack values is only very recently able to be done. For many years it was impossible to do and why my Furious Focus "hack" was exactly that.

Originally Posted by Krothos

FYI, Backswing is gained at 7th level

Correct and only at BAB +6 do you get more than one attack. So at level 3, 4, and 5 the adjustment is perfect. At BAB +6 it needs to be turned on/off if taking a full-attack. At level 7+ pretty much your back to leaving it on all the time.

That is why I keep saying is forcing a single attack for level 6 worth an extra activation button?

Originally Posted by Krothos

In your 18 Str 2-handed fighter wielding greatsword using Backswing would have the following damage output: 2d6+6/2d6+9. I listed "+7/+10/+10" in my previous example only to be eco-friendly to electrons (my bad lol).

But how do you get it to display 2d6+6/2d6+9? The current HL UI can NOT display this type of damage value. If I take over full manual control this means I need to duplicate all the logic for the extra damage (ie plus 1d6 fire) that LW already built.

My time guess would be between 8-12 hrs of work by the time you add in several dozen test cases. Including Vital Strike elemental damage and dozens of other abilities that add "extra damage".

Meaning the final outcome could be like:
2d6+6 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid/2d6+9 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid

Now the biggest problem is that the above value "2d6+6/2d6+9" will not work on the iPad that actually rolls dice. Either it totally is confused and does nothing or it rolls both? Honestly I would have to do testing to figure out what the iPad will even do with that value.

Originally Posted by Krothos

THANK YOU! for all your work in the Community Pack. I probably would have ditched HL for some Excel spreadsheet if it wasn't for all of your available adjustments. Instead I have put my car up as collateral so I could have all the HL PF licenses.

Thank you for saying this. One idea I was floating around was a dropdown on the adjustment to set some "choices". One maybe enforcing RAW about the single attack. I am still tossing around ideas which includes looking for ideas. But like with how things went with the Furious Focus is that I can't always get the UI display "exactly" how we would all like.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Meaning the final outcome could be like:
2d6+6 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid/2d6+9 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid

Maybe it would be better like this?
2d6+6/2d6+9 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid

Either way need to test the iPad....

[Krothos]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

Maybe it would be better like this?
2d6+6/2d6+9 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 acid

Either way need to test the iPad....

These are very valid points. Never considered the iPad version with it's ability to roll dice (always used HL on a computer). I can see how that would complicate things.

I'll add that personally I've always written out damage separated by commas (2d6+6/2d6+9, 1d6 fire, 1d6 acid), but that's just me thinking "plus" is too wordy in a stat block and a entirely different can of worms.

[DeltaMasterMind]

I was reading the Talented Monk PDF and I was wondering if it was something you are currently working on? See I noticed a decent amount of Talents have not been entered, so I figured I'd ask.