Need core races for NPCs

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by thistledown

I don't think we're on the same page. Right now, I do this:
Create new, select NPC as the type. Confirm add character.
Open it, go to character, go to race. I can pick a void hag, an urog, or any of the AA things, but I can't pick a human or a vesk. I can then modify that urog into the monster I want, but the vesk I'd have to start from scratch.

100% correct. Urog is a "pre-built" monster. A Void Hag is a 'pre-built' monster. Human or Vesk have no 'pre-built' monster stats. A pre-built monster stat (even in HLO) includes all the decisions that Paizo already made when building it (Ability scores, selection of master skills, if the monster was a combat or skill expert). Its not actually a blank "race" like Pathfinder has or would be built in HLC for Pathfinder where you start with race and select skills and ability scores.

From the other thread. Here is the statblock of the human gang members from the first AP Dead Suns:
-----------------------------------------------
Absalom Station Gang Member CR 1/2
XP 200
CE Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Perception +10
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Defense HP 13
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EAC 10; KAC 12
Fort +2; Ref +4; Will +0
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee club +2 (1d6-3 B)
Ranged azimuth laser pistol +6 (1d4 F; critical burn 1d4)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str +2; Dex +3; Con +1; Int -1; Wis +0; Cha -1
Skills Bluff +5, Intimidate +9, Stealth +5
Gear flight suit stationwear, azimuth laser pistol with 1 battery (20 charges), club, credstick (worth 150 cr), credstick (worth 150 cr)

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
------------------------------------------------

Its stats are in line with the Paizo adventure and built using HLO. But no where did I start with "human" because no such monster exists.

If you are making a vesk adversary you follow the rules of the AA and start with Humanoid as type and Vesk as the subtype. Then fill in the rest of the details. But a Vesk NPC does NOT get the ability score modifiers or many other features of the Vesk PC race.

I am not sure how else to describe this.....

[jlong05]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

100% correct. Urog is a "pre-built" monster. A Void Hag is a 'pre-built' monster. Human or Vesk have no 'pre-built' monster stats. A pre-built monster stat (even in HLO) includes all the decisions that Paizo already made when building it (Ability scores, selection of master skills, if the monster was a combat or skill expert). Its not actually a blank "race" like Pathfinder has or would be built in HLC for Pathfinder where you start with race and select skills and ability scores.

I think the OP had some incorrect selections as his example. I agree that non player race monsters should be the way they are, but the alternate player races, Barathu, Contemplative, Draelik, Dragonkin, Drow, Formian, Space Goblin, Gray, Haan, Ikeshti, Kalo, Maraquoi, Nuar, Ryphorian, Sarcesian, Shobhad, Skittermander, Urog, Verthani, Witchwyrd and Wrikreechee shoudl also follow the NPC rules being used for creating NPCs of Core system rules. Otherwise they do not follow the same logic. Either its ok for Core races to be in the NPC race list, or the AA races should not for custom NPCs that follow class builds.

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by jlong05

I think the OP had some incorrect selections as his example. I agree that non player race monsters should be the way they are, but the alternate player races, Barathu, Contemplative, Draelik, Dragonkin, Drow, Formian, Space Goblin, Gray, Haan, Ikeshti, Kalo, Maraquoi, Nuar, Ryphorian, Sarcesian, Shobhad, Skittermander, Urog, Verthani, Witchwyrd and Wrikreechee shoudl also follow the NPC rules being used for creating NPCs of Core system rules. Otherwise they do not follow the same logic. Either its ok for Core races to be in the NPC race list, or the AA races should not for custom NPCs that follow class builds.

This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Mathias

This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?

So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?

Tinker is added by the Goblinoid subtype for creatures of the goblin race, and the drow version of the elf subtype adds the basic spell-like abilities, but I'd say no to Unstable Junklaser being there by default for the "just the race" version.

But yes, this is a level of complexity I hadn't gotten to when I was asking for clarification on whether I was understanding the overall project correctly, and there would be a number of decisions like these to be made in some cases.

[jlong05]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

So to build on this. Does this mean all the "statblock" abilities that LW thinks are racial will come along also? In example for a Space Goblin will Tinker (Ex) & Unstable Junklaser (Ex) abilities come along?

What about for something more complex like the Drow. Will any abilities for Spell-Like abilities also come along?

No. I am not suggesting that LW decide what does/doesnt get included. It should be what is included when it is listed within the defined player race statblock. For instance.

If I wanted to create an enemy NPC CR3 Space Goblin Mechanic, I would ideally expect to do it in the following order:

1. Race - Space Goblin
1.1 Autoset Creature Type - Humanoid(Goblin)
1.2 Autoset languages - Common, Goblin
1.3 Autoset Creature Type Graft - Humanoid
1.4 Autoset Creature Subtype Graft - Goblinoid
2. Set CR to 3
3. Array - Expert
4. Class Graft - Mechanic
5. Choose the stat settings you want set

Etc.. filling in remaining details. As a Goblin created under this method I would expect the following racial "statblock" elements as listed on pg 55 of AA:
RACIAL TRAITS
Ability Adjustments: +4 Dex, –2 Cha
Hit Points: 2
Size and Type: Space goblins are Small humanoids with the goblinoid subtype.
Darkvision: Space goblins have darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Fast: Space goblins are fast for their size and have a base speed of 35 feet.
Scrounger: Space goblins receive a +2 racial bonus to Engineering, Stealth, and Survival checks.
Tinker: See page 54.

This is the current process to create this creature.

The issue is when you create something from the CRB. Making this same character, but as a Android would follow this path:

1. Race - custom
2. Set CR to 3
2. Array - Expert
3. Creature Type Graft - Humanoid
4. Creature Subtype Graft - Android
5. Class Graft - Mechanic
6. Choose the stat settings you want set

Both paths get nearly the same result, but the 1st route is significantly more intuitive to how you would expect to create a NPC for an existing race. You would not intuitively think to create a custom race NPC for a existing race in the game. I do not understand why instead all races couldn't just be managed from the Race selection and in the bare version, would not set any stat bonuses until the GM decides what they want set. (just like custom race) but without having to go through the multi-step custom race process.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the reasons employed here, but it just doesn't make sense that 'some' player races are functional as NPCs as a race selection, but other player races(specifically the ones from the CRB are only functional as a selection from a custom race creation)

As for the question on what abilities should come to an NPC as part of a class graft process, I would expect the elements listed under the racial traits for the PC class, not including items under specific monster creations in the AA book.

So Space Goblins would get Tinker, but not the junk laser as that is gear on the monster(not an actual racial benefit), Drow would get their immunities, magic etc, but not get the "create darkness, fighting styles (arcane assailant), rune of the eldritch knight" for the Enforcer monster or the "envoy improvisations (hidden agenda, improved get ’em, improved hurry, quick dispiriting taunt)" from the Arms dealer as those are defined monsters and should be as is.

Again, this is only my opinion, I am not the developer. Just saying what I believe makes sense for when I would create a NPC myself.

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Mathias

This is my understanding of what you are asking for. Am I correctly understanding your request?

That we create pre-built NPC races with a type and a subtype already applied, for each AA race that has a PC sidebar, plus the PC races from the core rulebook. These would exist alongside the finished NPCs, so there'd be a Barathu, Early Stage with just the type and subtype, and there'd be the existing one, with everything complete (they'd obviously have to be sorted in separate categories, so you could easily tell which was which).

So, according to the Starfinder NPC creation rules (Alien Archive pg. 126), steps 2 and 3 would be done for you by selecting one of these races, but the user would still do NPC Concept (specifically, picking a CR), step 1, and steps 4+?

That may help with the confusion for people switching over from Pathfinder.