Gestalt - Community Package....

[Dianae]

What I think stargazer_dragon was saying was that since Monk has Good Saves all around, that by lvl20, if we had Monk for 20 of those levels, the saves would be +12, +12, +12, regardless of Poor Save adjustments along the way, though possibly having the +1(or +2) bonus for multi-classing a new class in at a given level.

That said, your way of calculating things, darthgator, is how I had always calculated them (baring 3.5 and pathfinder rules differences) back in 3.5

[stargazer_dragon]

Not fully what I meant, however after reading and refreshing myself on gestalt (has been a while since I used it) I realize that what I ment wasn't correct ether.

Gestalt is actually not considered multi-classing. Since rules of gestalt state that you choose two classes each level a level 2 gestalt could be 1 theif and 2 monk and 1 ninja, but since he isn't multiclassing the saves would be based off of the better progression, meaning you would gain Monk saves.

If you took monk, rouge at first then wizard sorce at second your saves would gain the bonus from fast progression at lvl 1 and wizard/sorce progression at lvl 2.

Seams like this could be pretty hard to program though


Perhaps using the optional fraction rules would be a lot better.

"""The progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses
in the Player’s Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but
those fractions are eliminated due to rounding. For single-class
characters, this rounding isn’t signifi cant, but for multiclass characters,
this rounding often results in reduced base attack and
base save bonuses.
For example, a 1st-level rogue/1st-level wizard has a base
attack bonus (BAB) of +0 from each class, resulting in a total
BAB of +0. But that’s only due to the rounding of each fractional
value down to 0 before adding them together—the character
actually has BAB +3/4 from her rogue level and BAB +1/2 from
her wizard level. If the rounding was done after adding together
the fractional values, rather than before, the character would
have BAB +1 (rounded down from 1-1/4).""""

[Maidhc O Casain]

Originally Posted by stargazer_dragon

If you took monk, rouge at first then wizard sorce at second your saves would gain the bonus from fast progression at lvl 1 and wizard/sorce progression at lvl 2.

This is my understanding as well. Another example:

Say we take Wizard//Rogue at first level, for saves: FORT +0/REF +2/WILL +2 (the best save from the two classes in each category).

At second level if you took Fighter//Wizard, the saves would be FORT +2/REF +2/WILL +3 (Reflex doesn't change as both Fighter and Wizard are REF +0 at their levels - Fighter 01 and Wizard 02 - but Fighter gets FORT +2 at level 01 and Wizard gets another +1 at level 02).

EDIT: Late to the party . . . responded to the first unread post before I saw all of the other posts that followed.

[Dianae]

Attached is the .por with the character at several levels.

I left everything other than level choices un done, so that there is nothing else that might have been the conflict.

[repair]

Did you ever fix the skill points?

[Dianae]

Disclaimer accepted and seconded, I am attempting to be as rational on this matter as I can as well. It is a frustration that does seem to be spreading. The following, unless quoted is my own intuition/thoughts, after attempting to sift through the ideas I have seen, not any official rulings, and there may be some variants out there that I have missed.

1. I think one point of confusion between us(all inclusive here, not holding myself above anyone else) is the level based progression.
   • The Monk example I gave at first is a 2nd level character, whose Adjusted CL is roughly 3.
   • He is stronger than a Monk 2 or a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 by themselves due to flexibility and stronger saves, but weaker than a Monk and a Fighter/Rogue working together due to action economy.
   • He is weaker than a Monk 2/Fighter 1/Rogue 1, due to HD, BAB, and Skills, Access to Feats, etc.
2. The second point of confusion about Gestalt Characters comes from the concept of taking multiple classes.
   • If a Gestalt Character is Dual Classed(with the possibility of entering a Prestige Class)
   • The "Munchkin" Method(no offense meant) is to dip when you multiclass. as I did with Mr. Monk.

Dual Class Gestalt is the easiest to calculate and adjudicate. SC's addon already handles most of that beautifully(and hopefully all, once out of beta)

With all of the various rules that came out in Unearthed Arcana, WotC did not have a lot of space to lay down a lot exposition on all of the rules, so the base rules as given were pretty thin and open to interpretation. Many of the rules in this book did make it into Pathfinder (traits, drawbacks, bloodlines, variant classes(archtypes)) in one way, shape, form, or fashion.

Many number crunchers looked at Gestalt and wondered what would happen if the gestalt character dipped a level into X or Y. The points that have any reference on this idea are as follows :

Originally Posted by UA-pg72

To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes. (You can also choose any of the variant classes, though you can’t combine two versions of the same class.)

Originally Posted by UA-pg73

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.

Originally Posted by UA-pg73

Because the player of a gestalt character chooses two classes at every level, the possibilities for gestalt characters are almost limitless.

The only listed limitations were the aforementioned not combining two variants of the same class and :

• Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
• Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
• A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

To be honest, I think the biggest problem with getting this coded, is that the leveling system was explained in less than one page of text, about 1 1/3 columns of text to be precise.

[Mystic Lemur]

I agree. Fractional saves and BAB, while maybe not RAW, is the easiest way to handle Gestalt.


Tried this out today with a Gunslinger//Rogue and it worked amazingly well, aside from the already mentioned skill-point issue. Thanks for all the work you've put into this!

[stargazer_dragon]

it's close enough to Raw it's presented on page 73 of unearthed arcana as a optional rule. But really it makes the math more accurate over all.

I mean I guess the same can be done and more then likely by raw can be done by adding up how many lvls of each save are good saves and how many are poor then looking up what save you should get at that lv and adding it all up to get the number. Fractions basically does the same it just shows you the parts of the whole.

Thus a 5th lvl gestalt that gets 3 Lvls of good Fort saves and 2 lvls with poor fort save would get +3 for that save
5 lvls of good 0 of poor would get 4
2 good 3 poor would get +4


Which helps show why there optional rule is the preferred as by raw the way I understand the semi cryptic wording it is actually possible to get better saves with 3 poor 2 good then 3 good 2 poor simply because the 3rd good is a half point and the third poor is where the full point is

As to say Good goes
2.5
3
3.5
4
4.5

and Poor Goes
1/3
2/3
1
1 1/3
1 2/3

Which translates to
LV Good Poor
1 2 0
2 -- --
3 3 1
4 -- --
5 4 --

Thus by Raw every odd good save is good and every 3rd poor save is good.

By optional rule good saves are always better then poor saves thus making there option rule they list in the book the most excepted and preferred method

[ShadowChemosh]

So read everything you guys said. I do appreciate it. It has helped...

Is the following correct base saves?

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue   Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard  Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5

If so I found a way I think to code this into HL. If not its back to the drawing boards.

[stargazer_dragon]

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5

Depends on translation, Gestalt isn't considered multiclassing when it comes to save bonus (from the way I translate the class)

in the case of monk every lvl the saves by all means should be

1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3
4th Monk/Wizard Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3

And I a pretty positive that is by raw, best advancement from all of those lvls is the monk which has good progression on all lvls

Raw states
""Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the
two classes.

Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose
the better progression from the two classes. For example, a
1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw
bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good
Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save
from the wizard class.""

To me this simply means you ignore the actual numbers the class itself might get and you advance based on progression, Good progression is +1/2 per lvl after first, Poor progression is + 1/3 which is to say +1 per 2 and +1 per 3

Thus by Raw Saves would gain +1 per 2 lvls of good save progression after the first and +1 per 3 lvls of poor saves after the first. By option rules you would add the fractions together to possibly gain in between those points.


So in hopes of clerity, the way I read RAW rules is that you ignor the classes themselves and only look at which saves the class have as good and what ones they have as poor.

Then add them up in a fashion similar to
Fort / Reflex / Will
1st Fighter/Monk good / good / good
2nd Monk/Rogue good / good / good
3rd Monk/Rogue good / good / good
4th Monk/Wizard good / good / good
5th Wizard/Sorc Poor / Poor / good
Fort = Good 1st + 3 Good poor = 2 + (3/ 2 round down) = +3 Fort + (1 Poor / 3 Round down =) +0 = +3 fort
Reflex = Good 1st + 3 Good poor = 2 + (3/ 2 round down) = +3 Fort + (1 Poor / 3 Round down =) +0 = +3 Reflex
Will = Good 1st + 4 Good poor = 2 + (4/ 2 round down) = +4 Will

Note that the ones with all good or all poor progression is exactly the same as any other class with good or poor progression, the points where some are good porgression and some are bad, those are calculated by number of good + number of bad.

Thus if a class has 10 lvls and 7 lvls of that have good Fort saves and # lvls of that have poor fort saves then you Look at the chart for 7 lvls of Good and add that to chart for 3 lvls of Poor Saves to get the actual total.

This is further backed up by this Raw text
""Each time he gains a new level,
he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies
them to his characteristics.""

You will note that while gestalt class takes the best aspects of each of the two classes, and applies them to the gestalt class. It is still the same gestalt class it just gets to doppelganger the abilities of other classes, choosing the same class more then once stacks in a way that it gets to doppelganger higher aspects of that class. However threw out it all it is still a single gestalt class. Since it is impossible to take the same class more then a single time via multiclassing that further concretes that a 2nd lvl gestalt is Never multiclassed because in order for that to be true it would have to be a gestalt gestalt which breaks the Raw rules that you can't take a class more then once.

In short Gestalt is treated as a single class that has a variable BAB,HD,and Base save Progression. Hell really gestalt CLASS has variable everything but however it is still treated as a single class for all purposes.

Hope this might help clarify the raw and optional rules up a little