Pathfinder 2nd Edition

[Toblakai]

Two other issues, if the licensing server dies, existing installs dont suddenly stop working, and offline software isnt subject to a host of outside issues (server maintenance, ISP issues, or general wifi/network issues). Having an offline option means that I can play at GenCon. Lets see HLO work at GenCon 2018 (not trying to insult LW, just a fact). Having software as a service (ie subscription) is an obnoxious approach. I dont want to pay monthly for something, because odds are in the long term I will be paying 2 or 3 times more for the same software if I payed up front.

How many times a year do you go to Gencon?

I personally have never gone (this year will be my first time). I go to one other convention yearly, Wifi access and cell phone access there are fine.

I rented a cabin in the middle of the frikin mountains.. guest what? It had wifi (decent too). I can't remember the last time I gamed and didn't have access to the internet.

Since subscription models are so obnoxious to you, I suspect you have NO other subscriptions for anything? $25/year is nothing, especially for the benefits it will have.

 

[Toblakai]

And when they do, some enterprising individual will hack the code and remove the requirement for a license. It's not very difficult...

I suspect some of the complainers about HLO are people getting pirated copies of HLC.

Which is undoubtedly one of the motivating factors for moving to a monthly subscription plan. Once you no longer have the program or data stored on your own device, they can control it and do whatever they want with it at any time.

I don't believe that LWD is a malicious company. WoTC definitely is a company like that, but LWD seems to be a pretty decent company (other than the major flaw that they can't seem to hit RW releases on time) and one that is in it for the gamers.

 

[Minous]

I hit 4-6 cons a year. Most have spotty wifi at best. GenCon has nothing at the tables. I do keep my subscriptions to a minimum. The ones that I do have I pay on an annual cycle. LW can confirm this, I am a paying user (I have all paizo sources except the AP stuff) so it's not just the freeloaders complaining. Please note that I am not assuming LW would intentionally cause issues, but rather I was highlighting the risks of SaS.

 

[Toblakai]

I hit 4-6 cons a year. Most have spotty wifi at best. GenCon has nothing at the tables. I do keep my subscriptions to a minimum. The ones that I do have I pay on an annual cycle. LW can confirm this, I am a paying user (I have all paizo sources except the AP stuff) so it's not just the freeloaders complaining. Please note that I am not assuming LW would intentionally cause issues, but rather I was highlighting the risks of SaS.

I really don't like PFS that much so I don't go out of my way for cons, I find that all the PFS adventures are pretty much the same so I get bored real fast. I may go to Paizocon this year (it's only 5 miles from my house) but we'll see.

I also don't think LWD will be making a profit on $25/yr. I can't see how someone can avoid subscriptions, Cable tv, music service, netflix, hulu, gym, hbo, Paizo subscriptions..

 

[Dwayne]

Welcome to the 20th century!

Point 3 is also true of HLC, they can shut down the license server anytime..

I hate to tell you this but it is the 21st century. You must have lost 100 years of your life somewhere.

 

[Toblakai]

I hate to tell you this but it is the 21st century. You must have lost 100 years of your life somewhere.

It is not I that lost 100 years... it is the person I quoted who is still stuck in the 20th century.

 

[Tarmor]

(I had written a couple paragraphs about how free software with subscriptions for updates and a "features-for-hire" service are the only sustainable model in the long term because it's the only one that puts the interest of customers first, but it was off topic so I removed it.)

This whole thread has gone way off topic!
Discussion of HLO, subscriptions, wifi etc, are more appropriate in the Discussion or HLO forum.
Does anyone have any actual detail about PF 2.0 at this stage?

 

[Toblakai]

This whole thread has gone way off topic!
Discussion of HLO, subscriptions, wifi etc, are more appropriate in the Discussion or HLO forum.
Does anyone have any actual detail about PF 2.0 at this stage?

Go to the Paizo site, they have a lot of previews for it. It's way to early for LWD to start working on it. Come August the playtest will be out, and maybe that will be enough to start the base framework, but I suspect they wait a bit longer than that and try to get a pre-release of the final rules.

 

[Ualaa]

I suspect that if you prefer a non-online and non-subscription model, Hero Lab classic will be there for you.

A lot of us will go for both versions.
No one is forced to use either model.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

No one is forced to use either model.

If you play Starfinder than you are forced to use HLO as its the only option. I honestly expect that if you plan to play PF2 that HLO will also be the only option. Happy if I am wrong but I think people should prepare for that answer in 2019.

 

[Fuzzy]

I suspect that if you prefer a non-online and non-subscription model, Hero Lab classic will be there for you.

A lot of us will go for both versions.
No one is forced to use either model.

I highly doubt you'll see pf2 in any official form for hlc. They blew all their resources misguidedly creating hlo instead of simply adding an API or online capabilities to hlc, so now they sort of feel internally obligated to 'force' users into using it. When you make a bad decision (one that you stated was bad years ahead of time), the modern business method is to just shove all your resources into it and force it to be semi successful, instead of backtracking and correcting the original mistake.

 

[Toblakai]

I highly doubt you'll see pf2 in any official form for hlc. They blew all their resources misguidedly creating hlo instead of simply adding an API or online capabilities to hlc, so now they sort of feel internally obligated to 'force' users into using it. When you make a bad decision (one that you stated was bad years ahead of time), the modern business method is to just shove all your resources into it and force it to be semi successful, instead of backtracking and correcting the original mistake.

HLO was a fantastic decision, and adding an online component to HLC classic wouldn't end well the interface is already seriously dated, it works but it feels like a late 90's app. Online capabilities would have to be kludged in. It also doesn't solve the android app problem either.

 

[Fuzzy]

What I (and others) had asked for 5 or 6 years ago, was simply adding an API to the hero lab software - which would allow the already thriving hero lab user community at the time to develop their own apps for the system. Whether that was various live-play character sheets, combat managers, coordinated party management or direct VTT tie-ins, it would have opened up the software to a myriad of various use cases. Instead, they focused on a very narrow focused online-only product, tied to their servers only, that is usable how they decide it should be used, when circumstances allow it to be used, and that is all.

HLO is only a 'fantastic' decision, if it didn't mean the abandonment of the HLC platform. To date, I don't believe they have made any indication that future systems will be developed for HLC at all.

 

[Tarmor]

...and again, in less than a day, the thread is back to arguing about HLO.

 

[Azhrei]

When you make a bad decision (one that you stated was bad years ahead of time), the modern business method is to just shove all your resources into it and force it to be semi successful, instead of backtracking and correcting the original mistake.

It's called "economics". When you bet the family farm, that bet must pay off or... you lose the farm.

The only companies that can get away with abusing that rule have so much money that it doesn't matter. Some tech companies (Alphabet/Google, Apple) and investment houses (Vanguard, Fidelity, etc), for example.

What I (and others) had asked for 5 or 6 years ago, was simply adding an API to the hero lab software [...]

Except this isn't so simple. In fact, it's a lot of work. And it doesn't have any immediate payoff either, unlike converting Paizo books into data sets.

Given the current UX around HLC, I would be willing to bet that it would be significant work to retrofit any kind of "plugin" API. Speaking as someone who has seen a lot of "enterprise" code first hand, very little of it is any good from an architectural or design standpoint. It might've been top-notch at first, but later developers come along and don't adhere to the design philosophy or architectural choices made by the original team, so things quickly go to pot.

HLO is only a 'fantastic' decision, if it didn't mean the abandonment of the HLC platform. To date, I don't believe they have made any indication that future systems will be developed for HLC at all.

Many companies preserve and even develop their legacy products, even if they've decided their future lies elsewhere. Car manufacturers badly want to be in the electric market, but know that their expertise is in fossil fuel designs, so they plan for a long transition (measured in years or even decades).

But they have the capital to sustain that kind of time frame, LWD doesn't. I have to applaud LWD for taking the plunge into web technologies to service their customers, I just don't think it'll work out for me.

...and again, in less than a day, the thread is back to arguing about HLO.

Dude, this is the INTERNET! What did you expect was going to happen?! It's already been established that there's not enough information about PF2 to have an informed discussion, so we need a proxy. Hence, HLO v. HLC. "Battle of the Century!"

 

[LazarX]

While that's true perhaps for D&D 5e, there were not that many changes from the Pathfinder Beta release to the Final release. They tweaked combat maneuvers (it seems a right of passage for any revision of the D&D3 rules to tweak how grapple works!!) and a few of the classes (added some sorcerer bloodlines, IIRC), but they were about 90-95% the same.

One company's handling of playtests != another company's handling of the same thing!

There was a considerable amount of change from Alpha to release, and what's coming out in the Summer is being advertised as Alpha, not Beta.

 

[RavenX]

Ugg.. I'm sorry for you, I don't know how I could live without d20pfsrd.com during a gaming session

I guess it re-enforces GM fiat though.

The place has no wifi access and the building's walls are thick. The metal roof and insulation pretty much block cell phone signals. Now, to be honest, its a great place to game without the distraction of internet as well. Yeah I have to do without online services like d20srds but at the same time I have physical copies of the books which defeats that purpose anyway. System Reference Documents are stripped down versions of their parent systems, so you do end up missing some content that is in the book. I'd rather use the books just because of that. Also, I used to have a player who once he got online was useless as a player to the group. He wouldn't pay attention at all when we were doing things and the game was running. Once we started using the ghetto store he got his head in the game. It's not an ideal location, but its also an ideal location. I know running the game up there is difficult at times for some people but for me its nice to have a game without the distractions of the internet and players not paying attention to the game. Every pays attention to what's going on at the tabletop up there. "Device-Free" gaming has its perks too so its one reason I wouldn't think of changing locations for awhile. I know it annoys some players but ultimately I think the good outweighs the bad. When you have nothing else to do but play D&D and there's no distractions around, it leads to fun games and players who get through encounters. We get solid games done up there so I do like the location.

 

[Azhrei]

There was a considerable amount of change from Alpha to release, and what's coming out in the Summer is being advertised as Alpha, not Beta.

You quote a paragraph from more than a month ago. In that time, Paizo has posted many blog articles discussing the changes. They are going to be significant. Much more significant than the change from D&D3.5 to Pathfinder (which was often called "D&D 3.75").

Paizo has said that there won't be any conversion of characters from PF1 to PF2; there will only be rebuilds. Thus, the existing PF1 data set that HLC has will be useless (well, not entirely; maybe 30% usable?) when moving to PF2...

 

[Farling]

Paizo has said that there won't be any conversion of characters from PF1 to PF2; there will only be rebuilds. Thus, the existing PF1 data set that HLC has will be useless (well, not entirely; maybe 30% usable?) when moving to PF2...

If this turns out to be the reality with PF2, then there's no reason to move to PF2 rather than D&D5 (or stick with PF1, if they'll continue to produce adventure paths and modules for it).

 

[ShadowChemosh]

If this turns out to be the reality with PF2,

How much of a conversion guide the final book is going to have is not 100% finished and I don't think will be until 2019. But PF2 is not being marketed as being backwards compatible like PF1 was to 3.5 or how monsters are in Starfinder to Pathfinder.

This time pretty fundamental changes are happening to the core rules engine instead of heavy tweaks like PF1 was. I think you would be best to plan that backwards compatibility does not exist this time.

(or stick with PF1, if they'll continue to produce adventure paths and modules for it).

I think it was August of 2019 all support for PF1 ends. That is the official announcement from the CEO of Paizo. The last PF1 adventure path is Return of the Runelords I forget what the last PF1 module is.

Basically when PF2 launches at GenCon 2019 no more PF1 material from Paizo is going to be produced (3PP are NOT being stopped from producing PF1 material). Now then the PF2 modules/adventures would still be usable for its story and ideas. But you would most likely need to swap out a PF2 monster with a PF1 monster or manually convert yourself (or wait for others on the net to do it).

I am pretty happy with the changes I have seen from Paizo so far. Honestly since playing Starfinder I was not looking forward to DMing Pathfinder again. Its just been such breath of fresh air with Starfinder rules that I was not looking forward to the issues of PF1 again. Though I do wish Dead Suns had a better and more logical story.

Maybe worth looking at PF2 to see what the Paizo team can really do when not shackled to the 3.5 engine. I looked at 5e and did some help with the guys to setup 5e community Pack. I was not impressed with what I saw actually. 5e super simple design and game play with never gaining power as you level is not for me.