Warning D&D 5e not usable for gaming.

[daplunk]

You think $20 is an unfair price for the years of development that have gone into the application?

I honestly don't see it as I'm buying the functional game files. The dev's give you that so that you will buy the application yes but realistically you are paying for the application itself.

And as someone who's now spent a chunk of time playing with it, it's a pretty damn impressive piece of software.

How easy do you think it is to program something that caters to every systems needs while still also being flexible enough to handle what ever crazy concept the community can come up with?

I would wager many of the new systems start this way. With as much content as LW can legally put into it. They do as much as you can and then they give you every single tool and all the support you need to fill in the gaps.

$20 might be too much for just the SRD content this week. But hopefully that will all change next week... Either way you will still have paid LW $20 to use their application which is less than a dinner date at McDs with your missus.

 

[DMG]

As a software developer myself, I know exactly how much time & effort goes into this kind of thing. Over the years, I've bought plenty of Pathfinder material for HL, so I'm also happy to pay for the work that goes into a product.

My point is that I can spend $20 to get all of the Pathfinder Core Rules, or Vampire, or Changeling, or Call of Cthulhu. But 5e gets you what, 1 feat?

I just don't think it's fair to charge the same price for what is essentially an empty box that you have to fill yourself. I'd expect to pay a lesser price now & then pay the rest to upgrade when (if) the full PHB is released.

I also realise that LWD's hands are tied by WotC. Which is why I say I'm not pointing the finger fully at them. They're a great team, with great products. I just don't think the price for the 5e SRD is worth it at this point in time.

 

[wurzel]

As a software developer myself, I know exactly how much time & effort goes into this kind of thing. Over the years, I've bought plenty of Pathfinder material for HL, so I'm also happy to pay for the work that goes into a product.

Since you are a software developer you probably know that creating complex code that works and just doing data entry are two completely diferent things.

My point is that I can spend $20 to get all of the Pathfinder Core Rules, or Vampire, or Changeling, or Call of Cthulhu. But 5e gets you what, 1 feat?

As mentioned before, it gets you a working game system with the possibility to put in your own content.

I just don't think it's fair to charge the same price for what is essentially an empty box that you have to fill yourself. I'd expect to pay a lesser price now & then pay the rest to upgrade when (if) the full PHB is released.

As mentioned before (also by many others here) the box definitely is not empty but something stable where you can put in your valuable ideas. And if you happen to have no ideas, rest assured that someone will fill in the missing parts. Maybe under different names - and you might again be offended by this fact - but nevertheless working.

I also realise that LWD's hands are tied by WotC. Which is why I say I'm not pointing the finger fully at them. They're a great team, with great products. I just don't think the price for the 5e SRD is worth it at this point in time.

It's always better not to point fingers at people who achieved something that you did not.

 

[Mergon]

Until Lonewolf put out 5e for HL, I'd been using ForgedAnvil's magnificent Excel Character sheet.

As fantastic as it is though, it had flaws:
1) ForgedAnvil has the sheet password protected to prevent anyone from playing around with his core coding.
2) He has slowly added a great deal of customization options and is still in the midst of adding more. However, there is still no easy way to add new classes with automation. You can approximate classes by adding stuff to a new tab, but you can't really have the sheet interact with your new stuff.
3) Due to the work involved, he will not add any of the Unearthed Arcana material until it is 'Finished' material.

With the advent of HL 5e, I have been easily able to add any custom material I want for my players. With all the work the community has been doing, my time spent on adding official material has been cut down immensely, leavign me with time to add my own custom material.

$20 (US) for what I get is absolutely fantastic. If the package was licensed and complete, the package would most likely have been 2-3 times the price.

 

[Mergon]

It's always better not to point fingers at people who achieved something that you did not.

The problem with WotC is that they started off as a purely card game (Magic the Gather; to which I was heavily addicted for years). Every game they have put out; and especially D&D since they bought the rights to it, has been based on Magic the Gathering's ideaology and play style. Unfortunately, they have also gone all gung-ho about game balance, one of the thigns I absolutely hate about all versions of D&D sicne WotC gained the rights.

Fortunately, the DM has the final say, so I toss many things that are about balancing the system into the same garbage bin that holds Disco garbage,

"Disco's in the garbage, right where it belongs"

 

[DMG]

I'm not going to respond to any particular post here, but I will try to clarify my case for a final time.

Hero Lab's purpose is as a character generator.

When I buy Hero Lab ($10) and a data pack ($20) for say Pathfinder, I have purchased software that can create a fully playable character, "out of the box".

If I buy a data package (another $20 each) for Vampire, or Changeling, or Shadowrun etc, I am able to create fully playable characters, straight from the data package I purchased.

When I spend $20 on the 5e data package, I cannot create a playable character. I have payed for the framework, but none of the data that makes that framework useable.

So there is my point: I am paying the same price for a package that does not create a character as for packages that do let me create a character. Therefore, it is not of the same value to me.

 

[Elindor]

Out of the box, it lets you play a character that can be created within the confines of the 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons System Reference Document. Additionally, they have supplied the tools required to be able to add your own content. I'm fairly certain that, with the custom background, you're up can create any character in the starter edition of 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons without having to touch the editor or a line of code.

 

[DMG]

So you can create a character with 1 feat?

I'm just repeating myself ad nauseum to the point where no matter what my opinion is, somebody is going to shoot me down.

I'm over it.

 

[Mergon]

I'm not going to respond to any particular post here, but I will try to clarify my case for a final time.

Hero Lab's purpose is as a character generator.

When I buy Hero Lab ($10) and a data pack ($20) for say Pathfinder, I have purchased software that can create a fully playable character, "out of the box".

If I buy a data package (another $20 each) for Vampire, or Changeling, or Shadowrun etc, I am able to create fully playable characters, straight from the data package I purchased.

When I spend $20 on the 5e data package, I cannot create a playable character. I have payed for the framework, but none of the data that makes that framework useable.

So there is my point: I am paying the same price for a package that does not create a character as for packages that do let me create a character. Therefore, it is not of the same value to me.

You can very much create a playable character. But you are limited to what character you can play. You may not be able to create a character as you want, but you are able to create playable characters. Everything is there to do so.

You have to remember, the package is SRD, not Licensed (Full).

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I think LW was very clear about what they where selling. If you didn't understand what you where buying and are "unhappy" about it. LW has a 60 day refund no questions asked policy. Personally I think that is very nice of them to do.

Please feel free to ask for your money back if you are unhappy with the purchase. Maybe things will change in the future.

Honestly I see this as another WotC "suit" issue and nothing to do with LW at all.

 

[DMG]

Thanks Shadow, I didn't buy it anyway as I knew what LWD was selling.

When the full version is out, then I'll be ready to buy.

Edit: And yes, I think LWD has great refund policies etc. I'm not faulting their business practices at all here.

 

[MNBlockHead]

If you think $20 is too much, wait until you see the price when they *do* have a license for the full core content. I'm not a developer, so much of the arguments about the amount of work that goes into the tool are lost on me. Given what you can get for the other systems for the same price, the SRD package certainly doesn't seem like a great deal. At the same time, I am absolutely certain that no DnD 5e content will seem like a great deal in comparison to other systems. Look at the pricing for 5e content for Fantasy Grounds.

 

[Elindor]

So you can create a character with 1 feat?

I'm just repeating myself ad nauseum to the point where no matter what my opinion is, somebody is going to shoot me down.

I'm over it.

If you're using Feats, they have actually supplied 2 feats for you - Grappler and Custom, which can be changed however you want. The Custom feat won't do code, however, so the effects would need to be tracked manually, or via adjustments.

 

[Krimson]

If you think $20 is too much, wait until you see the price when they *do* have a license for the full core content. I'm not a developer, so much of the arguments about the amount of work that goes into the tool are lost on me. Given what you can get for the other systems for the same price, the SRD package certainly doesn't seem like a great deal. At the same time, I am absolutely certain that no DnD 5e content will seem like a great deal in comparison to other systems. Look at the pricing for 5e content for Fantasy Grounds.

Gladly pay it over a product that you pay for, then have to spent however much time it requires to make an incomplete product function like a complete one.

 

[daplunk]

Isn't that the point of this model though...

You only need to pay your $20 and have a little bit of patience...

Community packs fill the gaps meaning you don't have to add anything yourself if you don't want to enabling you to create characters with all the options you expect.

 

[Dervish]

They say a fool and his money are soon parted so who is the more foolish the man with patience or the man who gives in to his need for instant gratification

lets do the math real quick


Ultimate license for fantasy grounds 149
Players handbook material 49.99
monster manual material 49.99
250 ish dollars to make characters and have monsters



Vs 20 dollars and a little patience to let the community get stuff in order

Seems like a no brainer to me

 

[dafrca]

They say a fool and his money are soon parted so who is the more foolish the man with patience or the man who gives in to his need for instant gratification

lets do the math real quick


Ultimate license for fantasy grounds 149
Players handbook material 49.99
monster manual material 49.99
250 ish dollars to make characters and have monsters



Vs 20 dollars and a little patience to let the community get stuff in order

Seems like a no brainer to me

Or even $20 for the core SRD and another $49.99 for the Players Handbook Material.

Look, the reality is, I would pay again for a Players Handbook to have the materials added to Hero Lab. I did it for Pathfinder and many others did too. I don't mind paying for what I want. I just don't see the need to buy a software package that is not made for managing just to manage my characters. So I will pass on Fantasy Grounds and wait for something to break here.

 

[Krimson]

They say a fool and his money are soon parted so who is the more foolish the man with patience or the man who gives in to his need for instant gratification

lets do the math real quick


Ultimate license for fantasy grounds 149
Players handbook material 49.99
monster manual material 49.99
250 ish dollars to make characters and have monsters



Vs 20 dollars and a little patience to let the community get stuff in order

Seems like a no brainer to me

Adages that come from a mass produced fortune cookie have little effect on me. I own all the stuff listed above and more. Paying for a product that works is preferable to paying for an incomplete product. You may make references to a "fool and his money" but my free time is valuable. Paying $US 50 for a product that work is worth far more to me than spending $US 20 along with hours of my time sifting through multiple posts hoping to hack it into a working product. $US 50 is two hours at my real job. I have a feeling trying to hack this into a complete product will take more than two hours of my time. So how is that foolish if I want to spend my time working on a game instead of screwing around trying to make a piece of software usable?

 

[daplunk]

5 more feat mechanics and this whole discussion will be void.

 

[rob]

OK, folks. It's time for the snarkiness to end. Everything is a choice and a value judgement, and everyone has a different valuation of whether the way things work for Hero Lab is "worth it" to them. It is WHOLLY INAPPROPRIATE to proclaim someone else's value judgement as "wrong". So those comments need to stop NOW.

Our options are limited by the rules of the SRD. We've done our best to communicate that to everyone, but some people don't understand all the factors at play here - and don't want to. They just want something that works out of the box, which is not something we can offer. For those folks, we just hand them their money back, but some people just want something we can't offer and feel like complaining that we can't. That's just life in real world and business.

But that does NOT give anyone the right to claim that people with that viewpoint are somehow "wrong" for having it.

So both sides of this argument get to stop now. I'm officially closing this thread, since the title itself is nothing more than bait for an argument that doesn't yield anything constructive.

Thanks, Rob