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ShadowChemosh
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 09:21 AM
July 23, 2017 - New V1.0 Gestalt Release!

Please note that Valdacil has taken over this addon! Big Thanks to Valdacil for all his hard work!

A lot of people have asked for Gestalt rules from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana for Pathfinder. Gestalt pack v0.6 released in 2014 served the need for a number of years, but was not calculating multiclassing scenarios based on Gestalt as intended and the Pathfinder Core Rulebook Pg 30 'Multiclassing'. Version 1.0 sees a significant rewrite of the BAB and save calculation methodologies that solves the multiclassing issues while also adding some optional rules in use by my gaming group. You are free to enable/disable these optional rules as desired.

Multiclassing
RAW for multiclassing without Gestalt is to take the BAB and Saves for Class A with number of levels you've taken (say Fighter 5: BAB +5, FORT +5, REFL +1, WILL +1) and add them to BAB and Saves for Class B with number of levels you've taken (say Wizard 1: BAB +0, FORT +0, REFL +0, WILL +2) which results in BAB +5, FORT +4, REFL +1, WILL +3. This continues to work the same if you add additional levels of those classes or add more classes.

For Gestalt, while there is some confusion with wording, the intention is to calculate the left side following the multiclassing rules above, then the right side following the same rules, then take the higher BAB and each Saves between the two. Previously, Gestalt v0.6 would take the higher BAB and Saves progression of any chosen class and continue to apply that rate even if the class granting a 'Good' BAB/Save was only taken once. Gestalt v1.0 will now calculate the individual sides following Multiclassing RAW (including PrC) then take the better of the two.

Instructions
To use the Gestalt Addon properly requires some special rules to follow in Hero Lab.
  • Each time you level, you must add 1 level of Gestalt before adding your desired classes.
  • After adding 1 level of Gestalt, 1 level of class A, and 1 level of class B, immediately switch to the Gestalt tab and select your two classes in the picker. This will calculate BAB, Saves, HP, Feats, and Skill Points based upon your selections.
  • Once you select a class on either the left or right side, you must always select that class on the same side. So if at level 1 you chose Fighter/Rogue then at level 2 chosen Wizard/Rogue, you must choose Rogue on the same side at level 1 and level 2 otherwise it won't calculate correctly.

Known Issues
  • Favored Class Bonuses: Gestalt's Favored Class Bonuses will only be based upon the first two classes chosen. If you later choose a third (or forth, etc) class bonuses for your race from those classes will not be present in the Gestalt Favored Class Bonus chooser. Personally, I recommend NOT using the Gestalt Favored Class Bonus chooser and actually selecting one of your chosen classes as your favored class.
  • Some favored class bonuses don't work properly when selected as Gestalt favored class bonuses. These are typically ones that have configuration options like Human Sorcerer. Again, select the actual class for your favored class instead of Gestalt for these to work properly.
  • Combinations that have the same feature do not stack properly. One example of this is Sneak Attack. Hero Lab calculates your sneak attack bonus by counting how many instances of the Sneak Attack pick are present on the hero. If you choose two classes that get this feature, Gestalt should give the better progression but Hero Lab is stacking them together resulting in significantly inflated values. Use adjustments to bring these handful of improperly stacking features back to appropriate values.
  • Selecting 'Non-Player Character' on the Configure Your Hero screen causes some things not to calculate properly (most notably HP). If you want a Gestalt NPC, choose 'Hero' regardless if the character is a NPC.

Optional Rules
These rules are used by my gaming group and can be toggled on/off from the Configure Hero screen:
  • HD Bonus Option: If enabled, grants bonus HP at each level if both classes have d8 or higher HD sides. Calculation is higher of the two chosen classes plus bonus based on HD sides of the second class as follows: d8 = +1, d10 = +2, d12 = +3…
  • Saving Throw Bonus Option: If enabled, grants a +1 misc bonus to any save that has a 'Good' rate for both chosen classes. This bonus is only granted for the last chosen class combination. So if you chose Monk(U)/Rogue(U) you would receive a +1 misc bonus to Reflex since both of those classes have 'Good' reflex. However, if you next chosen Monk(U)/Fighter, you would lose the +1 misc bonus to Reflex and instead gain a +1 misc bonus to Fortitude (since Fighter is 'Poor' Reflex, but both Monk(U) and Fighter share 'Good' Fortitude).
  • Skill Points Bonus Option: If enabled, calculates skill points each level as higher of the two chosen classes plus a bonus of half the second chosen class. Example: Rogue(U) = 8; Monk(U) = 4 therefore total skill points that level would be 10 + INT (8 + .5*4 = 10).
  • Skills Bonus Option: If enabled, grants a +1 untyped bonus to any skill that is a class skill from two sources (two chosen classes, feats, traits, etc). This is cumulative. If chosen class A and chosen class B both have Perception as a class skill, then Perception would get a +1 untyped bonus. This would also work if chosen class A had Perception as a class skill and you chose a trait that gave Perception as a class skill.
  • Attribute Bonus Option: If enabled, grants +1 to two attributes (instead of one attribute) at 4, 8, 16, and 20. At level 12 grants +1 to all attributes (instead of +1 to one attribute). When granted two bonuses at 4, Hero Lab will show one of them as being for level 8. This is a display only issue and you will still receive two more attribute selections at 8. For this rule you are not supposed to select the same attribute for any given level (should be two different attributes), but Hero Lab does not enforce this rule.
  • Starting Wealth Calculation: If enabled, calculates starting cash for first level as higher of the two chosen classes plus half of the second chosen class. Example: Fighter = 5d6, Rogue(U) = 4d6 therefore Starting Cash = 7d6 x 100. This assumes that all classes use Xd6 x 100.

Hero Lab Resources:
Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup
3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup
5E D&D - Community Server Setup
Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources.
Created by the community for the community
- Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.
- d20 HL package volunteer editor.
ShadowChemosh is offline   #151 Reply With Quote
Vlan
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Old July 24th, 2017, 09:36 AM
For me. HP sets itself to Max and then won't allow it to be changed. Neither of the regular HP options are selected (average or max at each level).

Was trying to update one of the main baddies for my upcoming game. Barb (invulnerable rager) // Fighter (2handed).

I've even started fresh as a new character and still get the same issue. It's not that big of a deal as I can apply adjustments to his HP, but it is bugged in some way
Vlan is offline   #152 Reply With Quote
Moara
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Old July 24th, 2017, 07:00 PM
Thank you Valdacil for taking over the Gestalt! I just downloaded the new one today, and unfortunately I've discovered a bug.

I don't have the optional HP rules enabled (double checked), nor do I have the 'Always take Max HP' checked either. I cannot enter a number less than max in my HP into the Gestalt HP box on the Classes screen. Any time I try, it automatically puts 10 back into it.
Moara is offline   #153 Reply With Quote
BrianFroemming
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Old July 24th, 2017, 08:24 PM
I had a similar problem. All the hit dice on my gestalt character are now maxed out, and HeroLab will not let me reset the numbers back to their originals.
I also have a problem on the Gestalt tab. My gestalt character is 5th level. Right after I did the update, levels 1 and 2 on the Gestalt tab were erased, and levels 6 and 7 had the class levels listed that were in 1 and 2. I did get a dropdown box with the missing levels, and was able to put them back on levels 1 and 2 were they belonged, but levels 6 and 7 still list classes, when they should be blank.
Also, on the statblock, it lists my character as having 15 hit dice, listed out as 5 dice and 10 dice. The total hit points are correct, though, at least as the character would be with all maxed out hit dice.
BrianFroemming is offline   #154 Reply With Quote
Dwayne
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Old July 24th, 2017, 08:33 PM
I was playing around with the new Gestalt and I noticed a bug with a half-elf and their 2 favored classes. You get double bonuses. Gestalt and whatever class is listed for second.
Dwayne is offline   #155 Reply With Quote
Valdacil
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Old July 25th, 2017, 01:19 AM
@Vlan/Moara - OK, that did not get tested to be honest since we use the Max HP rule, so it being max HP is not an issue for us. I will have to look into this. In order to set the HP for that level, Gestalt is directly editing the value for that level, so most likely if you entered a different value as soon as the code runs again it resets it to the calculated value. I can probably check for the Max HP setting and if not selected have Gestalt randomize the HP value... the problem is that it will probably rerandomize it every time the code runs. <<Just thinking out loud. I'll have to investigate it more closely>>

@BrianFroemming - For the issue w/ 1/2 vs. 6/7, I had seen some strangeness with the pickers long before I'd started editing them. The fact that it is now showing things at 6/7 should not be an issue, because it only calculates up to your Gestalt levels. Once you level up to 6, you'll want to re-select the classes on the Gestalt tab. It should work fine because that has happened to me before.

@BrianFroemming - Ah the HD thing, forgot to mention that in the Known Issues. In order for Gestalt to calculate the left and right sides properly, I can't zero out the individual classes' HD values like the code used to. The side effect is that it shows ALL the HD next to the HP value. This is a display only problem and can be safely ignored.

@Dwayne - That has actually always been the case. Some of the solutions need to be of the "don't do that" variety. First, as noted above in Known Issues, I don't recommend setting your Favored Class to 'your 1st level class' or 'your 2nd level class' or even Gestalt. Favored Class should be set to your actual favored class. This should prevent duplicating bonuses. However, there are no validation errors if you select +HP or +Skill for both Favored Class Bonuses, even though that should be invalid. Sometimes it's simpler to say "don't do that" then to try to add a bunch of code to make it completely fool proof. I actually have a Half-Elf Druid/Rogue(U). I selected Druid for Favored Class and Rogue(U) for 2nd Favored. Then for Druid I'm taking +1/3 Wildshape NA and Rogue(U) taking +1 HP. Alternatively, if your group reads it as you should only get a single Favored Class bonus each level (regardless of how many favored classes you might have), then the solution would be to select something you'll never take (like Aristocrat) as your 2nd Favored Class. That will remove the 2nd favored class bonus selection.

Last edited by Valdacil; July 25th, 2017 at 01:27 AM.
Valdacil is offline   #156 Reply With Quote
Vlan
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Old July 25th, 2017, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdacil View Post
@Vlan/Moara - OK, that did not get tested to be honest since we use the Max HP rule, so it being max HP is not an issue for us. I will have to look into this. In order to set the HP for that level, Gestalt is directly editing the value for that level, so most likely if you entered a different value as soon as the code runs again it resets it to the calculated value. I can probably check for the Max HP setting and if not selected have Gestalt randomize the HP value... the problem is that it will probably rerandomize it every time the code runs. <<Just thinking out loud. I'll have to investigate it more closely>>
Could it leave the HP value at 0, but instead just edit the HD size? If I remember right the gestalt class has a d0 HD until you add classes to the Gestalt tab. I know v0.6 allowed for editing of HP at each level.

Also I guess it might be me just reading wrong, but the "gestalt code" as it where is constantly running. I can change an HP value, but as soon as I click out of the edit box it changes it back to the max. Could it simply be a timing issue in this case, the code is running constantly, but should only be ran once? I guess a better question would be why its editing the HP value and not just HD size. Again not knowing much about how herolab works, but once it sets the correct HD size couldn't the core herolab program (the stuff we can't change) then take over and work any error checking?

Sorry if this isn't much help, while I'm Ok at coding the herolab editor is foreign to me and I haven't had the time to learn well enough.
Vlan is offline   #157 Reply With Quote
Valdacil
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Old July 25th, 2017, 10:33 AM
Unfortunately, it is a fundamental part of how HL works. It doesn't use code that runs once, does something, then doesn't run again. Every time you make a change to the character (ie. add levels, enabled/disable something on InPlay, enable/disable adjustments, etc) it resets the character to base then runs ALL of the code against it again for EVERY pick that has code.

There is a fundamental difference between how v1.0 calculates Gestalt vs. v0.6. With v0.6 the Gestalt code would run against each picker (on the Gestalt tab) and calculate BAB, saves and HD; then it would take the highest of all of that and edit the Gestalt class pick on the hero. So if you took Monk(U) (d10) and Wizard (d6) at level one, v0.6 would set HD to d10. If at level 2 you took something like Witch (d6) and Wizard (d6), then you should get d6 for that level, but v0.6 had the Gestalt class set to d10, so it would give you d10 at all levels (unless you later took Barbarian and got a d12 HD; then all levels after that would be d12).

With v1.0, Gestalt is calculating HD for each class combination for that level and setting the Gestalt level (for that level) to the appropriate amount. Since my group uses the Max HP rule, I didn't account for not using max. I have an idea of how I can fix it so it randomizes each level's HP within the appropriate HD for the class combination without doing it every time the code is run (only run once). Just need time to work the code and test it. In fact, if my idea works, I think I will be able to make it set the HP value for the level then allow editing (not overwrite your entered value)

Give me a few days to work on it and hopefully I'll have a solution by the end of the week.
Valdacil is offline   #158 Reply With Quote
Castrin
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Old July 25th, 2017, 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdacil View Post
Since my group uses the Max HP rule, I didn't account for not using max.
Well there is a check box for that option already since it's an optional rule. Enforcing an optional rule across the board with no way to turn it off is a bad idea.

Regardless of this mistake, thanks for your work updating the addon.

Cas
Castrin is offline   #159 Reply With Quote
Valdacil
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Old July 26th, 2017, 04:59 PM
Testing version....

I now have it checking for whether you are using Max HP at new levels or Avg HP at new levels options. If you are, then it set the HP field at each level with the appropriate HP. If not, then it doesn't set the value leaving it as 0 so you can enter the amount of HP gained. I've also fixed the display issue reported where in the statblock it would show all classes HD.

The only problem is if you aren't using either Max or Avg, and you don't stick with the same 2 classes, then it isn't clear what is the possible max HP for the new class(es). At first level, it calculates the HD sides based on the classes chosen at level 1. This value is entered on the Gestalt class HD sides field. Example: Druid/Rogue(U) would be d8 (unless using the optional rule then it would be d9). But if you later took something like Monk(U)/Rogue(U), then die side for that combination would be d10 (or d11 for optional rule). This change for that level combination isn't displayed anywhere and the HL interface still shows the d8 next to the HP entry box (because d8 is what is shown on the Gestalt class).

So at least what I have in testing would let you enter a different value than Max or Avg, but it isn't clear what you are allowed to enter unless you stick with the same 2 classes from level 1.
Valdacil is offline   #160 Reply With Quote
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