torch as Weapon

[voydangel]

I am wondering when we will get an official update to the standard Core PF module that includes a torch in the weapon section much like shield bash or gauntlet (you know, like how those show up green under weapons). Not a separate weapon, but just - "I have a torch, what happens when i use it as a weapon"? We have it in the rules, it's there in the books (counts as improvised, does 1d3 bludgeoning +1 fire, assuming no feats that is). There are even a few feats that use it that could (hopefully) be modified at the same time to affect the torches combat stats (like making it count as a light mace from "Torch bearer" which then means it would need to be (further) properly modified if you have weapon finesse, etc).

How hard would it be to just add the torch stats as a helper like a gauntlet? And then how much harder would it be to make sure the various feats correctly apply their modifiers to it? I ask this because I tried doing my own custom file, but even as someone who knows c#, python, and a few other languages, this seems to be its own special breed of coding/editing.

I have also tried using the pathfinder community files, and there's just way too much bloat for my tastes. I don't want all 4bajillion things added when all i really want is a torch, plus, near as I can tell, unless I'm doing something wrong, the torch from those files isn't affected by feats or finesse or anything else.

So what gives? Is this in the works? Can we have torches? It seems like a pretty odd oversight to not have them in there already. =p

[ShadowChemosh]

The Community Pack includes a Torch. It does 1d4 fire damage based on the anniversary RotRL info.

Otherwise feel free to use the Editor to create such stuff for you group. This would be a very easy thing to start using the Editor with.

I would recommend reading the Glossary of Terms for the Editor. Then check out FAQ#2 for all the places to learn about the editor including YouTube videos. Welcome to the wonderful world of using the HL editor which will be the most frustrating and rewarding thing you can do with Hero Lab.

[voydangel]

I have the community pack, and I love all the work you've done, and it's awesome to have you here in the community. That being said...

The torch in the pack has the wrong stats (RAW torch does gauntlet dmg +1 fire dmg, not +1d4). Also, the torch in the pack doesn't get modified by any feats, and is impossible to get proficiency with, so the "weapon" stats never reflect stuff like "Burn, Burn, Burn" or "Torch Bearer".

I would be happy to make this myself if i knew how, and even share it with the community as well, but I would need a bit more guidance. (which i will look into with those links you provided , thanks you)

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by voydangel

The torch in the pack has the wrong stats (RAW torch does gauntlet dmg +1 fire dmg, not +1d4).

Well like I said this is a bit of discussion because Pathfinder has multiple listing for Torches and damage. I am pretty sure this was based off the RotRL AP anniversary addition because it was made to allow the creation of the Goblins.

Couple ways to fix this is to provide maybe a couple different "torch" weapons. Or a check/box drop down that swaps the damage around some. Different possibilities exist.

Originally Posted by voydangel

Also, the torch in the pack doesn't get modified by any feats, and is impossible to get proficiency with, so the "weapon" stats never reflect stuff like "Burn, Burn, Burn" or "Torch Bearer".

A torch is a improvised weapon so you would need to have feats/traits that affect or give proficiency with Improved Weapons.

I don't know what "Burn, Burn, Burn" or "Torch Bearer" are actually. If these are feats/traits they may have NO script logic because Core Pathfinder has no such thing as a Torch. I would have to be near HL to do some research on this.

That said if you find something that is not correct in the Pack its best to report it and I can try and fix it. Things change over time and not everything continues to work years later.

Originally Posted by voydangel

I would be happy to make this myself if i knew how, and even share it with the community as well, but I would need a bit more guidance.

The links above I list where to get all the help that is available in regards tot he Editor. Several of the YouTube videos go over how to start the editor and create your first Thing. In this case a weapon does not really require much or any scripting knowledge. Its pretty much fill in the info.

[voydangel]

Yea, I can understand it being up for debate since there's different info in different places, I was just basing it off of the several feats, and d20PFSRD.com, that all say the same thing, and wasn't aware of the conflict printed in RotRL. Oh well.

I like the idea of the checkbox, but ... a checkbox on an item to tell it to swap stats - would that be implemented via the "in play" tab? or in the weapons tab directly do you think?

"Fire Hand" is a Feat that says you can wield a torch without taking non-proficient penalty, and indeed give you a +1 to hit.

"Burn, Burn, Burn!" is a Feat that lets you deal +1d4 fire damage when attacking with a lit non-magical torch. (i think this is where the confusion in torch damage comes from, normally I believe its only +1 fire dmg, but with this feat you get +1d4 extra fire dmg)

"Torch Bearer" and "Firebrand" are Feats that both grant the same thing: 'You treat a torch as a light weapon (and therefore do not incur penalties as you would for using it as an improvised weapon) that deals bludgeoning damage equal to a light mace of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage'.

"Torch Handling" is a Feat that gives you multiple benefits, but the only relevant one to this is that "you treat torches as simple weapons."

All of these are Feats that directly affect torch damage, usability, or to hit modifiers. And there are more, I just wanted to list the "big" ones. I would love to see these be properly implemented, but as you say, there is no torch in core so possibly no script logic/support. Which causes me a sad.

I will, however, look through the guides and videos and see what I can do, but methinks it may require more behind the scenes stuff that I/we have access to.

Regardless of the outcome of all this though, thank you for the encouraging help and speedy responses.

[Silveras]

The rules for using a Torch as a weapon are in the Core Rulebook, in the entry for the Torch (p.157).

Originally Posted by Pathfinder Core Rulebook

Torch: A torch burns for 1 hour, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

Emphasis mine.

I raised this as an issue with LWD some time ago, but it went nowhere.

The Torchbearer feat was first printed in the Dungeoneer's Handbook and provided the PC with a Cohort-lite companion .. who was required to be of a selection of classes and must take the Torch Handling feat. As voydangel noted, the most relevant part of that feat is that Torches are treated as Simple Weapons. The Torch Handling feat, as implemented in HL currently, has no effect.. just text... as supposed.

This is not the same as the Asmodeus-worshipper specific Firebrand feat from Faiths of Corruption, which does not grant the other benefits and gives the light mace damage instead of the standard Gauntlet damage (the wording is awkward.. it just says you don't incur the penalties for using an improvised weapon and classifies it as a light weapon; while Torch Handling actually says to treat the Torch as a Simple Weapon).

The Torchbearer and Torch Handling feats were combined into the Light Bearer feat in Ultimate Intrigue.. without the part about treating Torches as Simple Weapons.

Burn! Burn! Burn! is a Goblin-specific feat from Goblins of Golarion that adds 1d4 fire damage to ANY attack using a non-magical fire item (such as alchemist's fire or a lit torch).

Originally Posted by Burn! Burn! Burn!

Benefit: You deal an extra 1d4 points of fire damage when you attack with fire from a non-magical or alchemical source (such as with torches or alchemical fire) and gain a +4 competence bonus on Reflex saving throws made to avoid catching on fire or putting yourself out when on fire. Additional damage caused by this feat does not apply to magical attacks or to splash damage.

Perhaps now that there are at least two feats which build on the rule in the Core Rulebook, LWD will re-consider adding Torches (lit and unlit) as weapons and connecting the feats to them.

[ShadowChemosh]

Yeah the more I looked into this the more this simply needs to be done/fixed by LW. Then they could code the feats/traits and abilities to correctly set the Torch Weapon values.

Heck the "Goblins" from the RotRL set from LW is also incorrect as they have them with Tiny sized Clubs.

Maybe if I script it and submit it to them they will add it.

[ShadowChemosh]

After looking at this today this was actually pretty easy to fix and implement all three feats: Burn! Burn! Burn! (ARG, GoG); Torch Bearer (Inner Sea Gods); Torch Handling (Dungeoneer's Handbook).

I also changed the damage of a base torch to 1d3 (M) with plus 1 fire damage. There is a checkbox on the In-Play tab to mark the torch as lit or unlit with "Unlit" the default. Though part of me thinks it should be lit by default actually.

This will be in the next community Pack update.

[Farling]

Originally Posted by ShadowChemosh

After looking at this today this was actually pretty easy to fix and implement all three feats: Burn! Burn! Burn! (ARG, GoG); Torch Bearer (Inner Sea Gods); Torch Handling (Dungeoneer's Handbook).

I also changed the damage of a base torch to 1d3 (M) with plus 1 fire damage. There is a checkbox on the In-Play tab to mark the torch as lit or unlit with "Unlit" the default. Though part of me thinks it should be lit by default actually.

This will be in the next community Pack update.

Is there any chance of getting the "Firebrand" feat (for Asmodeus worshippers) also added to your Torch's possible modifications?

[ShadowChemosh]

Originally Posted by Farling

Is there any chance of getting the "Firebrand" feat (for Asmodeus worshippers) also added to your Torch's possible modifications?

That was pretty easy so Firebrand feat logic will be in the next Community Pack update.