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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 68
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What I think stargazer_dragon was saying was that since Monk has Good Saves all around, that by lvl20, if we had Monk for 20 of those levels, the saves would be +12, +12, +12, regardless of Poor Save adjustments along the way, though possibly having the +1(or +2) bonus for multi-classing a new class in at a given level.
That said, your way of calculating things, darthgator, is how I had always calculated them (baring 3.5 and pathfinder rules differences) back in 3.5 |
#1 |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Not fully what I meant, however after reading and refreshing myself on gestalt (has been a while since I used it) I realize that what I ment wasn't correct ether.
Gestalt is actually not considered multi-classing. Since rules of gestalt state that you choose two classes each level a level 2 gestalt could be 1 theif and 2 monk and 1 ninja, but since he isn't multiclassing the saves would be based off of the better progression, meaning you would gain Monk saves. If you took monk, rouge at first then wizard sorce at second your saves would gain the bonus from fast progression at lvl 1 and wizard/sorce progression at lvl 2. Seams like this could be pretty hard to program though Perhaps using the optional fraction rules would be a lot better. """The progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses in the Player’s Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but those fractions are eliminated due to rounding. For single-class characters, this rounding isn’t signifi cant, but for multiclass characters, this rounding often results in reduced base attack and base save bonuses. For example, a 1st-level rogue/1st-level wizard has a base attack bonus (BAB) of +0 from each class, resulting in a total BAB of +0. But that’s only due to the rounding of each fractional value down to 0 before adding them together—the character actually has BAB +3/4 from her rogue level and BAB +1/2 from her wizard level. If the rounding was done after adding together the fractional values, rather than before, the character would have BAB +1 (rounded down from 1-1/4)."""" |
#2 |
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Location: Jonesboro, AR (USA)
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Quote:
Say we take Wizard//Rogue at first level, for saves: FORT +0/REF +2/WILL +2 (the best save from the two classes in each category). At second level if you took Fighter//Wizard, the saves would be FORT +2/REF +2/WILL +3 (Reflex doesn't change as both Fighter and Wizard are REF +0 at their levels - Fighter 01 and Wizard 02 - but Fighter gets FORT +2 at level 01 and Wizard gets another +1 at level 02). EDIT: Late to the party . . . responded to the first unread post before I saw all of the other posts that followed. |
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#3 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 68
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Attached is the .por with the character at several levels.
I left everything other than level choices un done, so that there is nothing else that might have been the conflict. |
#4 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10
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Did you ever fix the skill points?
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#5 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 68
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Disclaimer accepted and seconded, I am attempting to be as rational on this matter as I can as well. It is a frustration that does seem to be spreading. The following, unless quoted is my own intuition/thoughts, after attempting to sift through the ideas I have seen, not any official rulings, and there may be some variants out there that I have missed.
Dual Class Gestalt is the easiest to calculate and adjudicate. SC's addon already handles most of that beautifully(and hopefully all, once out of beta) With all of the various rules that came out in Unearthed Arcana, WotC did not have a lot of space to lay down a lot exposition on all of the rules, so the base rules as given were pretty thin and open to interpretation. Many of the rules in this book did make it into Pathfinder (traits, drawbacks, bloodlines, variant classes(archtypes)) in one way, shape, form, or fashion. Many number crunchers looked at Gestalt and wondered what would happen if the gestalt character dipped a level into X or Y. The points that have any reference on this idea are as follows : Quote:
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#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 254
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I agree. Fractional saves and BAB, while maybe not RAW, is the easiest way to handle Gestalt.
Tried this out today with a Gunslinger//Rogue and it worked amazingly well, aside from the already mentioned skill-point issue. Thanks for all the work you've put into this! |
#7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 134
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it's close enough to Raw it's presented on page 73 of unearthed arcana as a optional rule. But really it makes the math more accurate over all.
I mean I guess the same can be done and more then likely by raw can be done by adding up how many lvls of each save are good saves and how many are poor then looking up what save you should get at that lv and adding it all up to get the number. Fractions basically does the same it just shows you the parts of the whole. Thus a 5th lvl gestalt that gets 3 Lvls of good Fort saves and 2 lvls with poor fort save would get +3 for that save 5 lvls of good 0 of poor would get 4 2 good 3 poor would get +4 Which helps show why there optional rule is the preferred as by raw the way I understand the semi cryptic wording it is actually possible to get better saves with 3 poor 2 good then 3 good 2 poor simply because the 3rd good is a half point and the third poor is where the full point is As to say Good goes 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 and Poor Goes 1/3 2/3 1 1 1/3 1 2/3 Which translates to LV Good Poor 1 2 0 2 -- -- 3 3 1 4 -- -- 5 4 -- Thus by Raw every odd good save is good and every 3rd poor save is good. By optional rule good saves are always better then poor saves thus making there option rule they list in the book the most excepted and preferred method Last edited by stargazer_dragon; July 15th, 2014 at 09:23 PM. |
#8 |
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So read everything you guys said. I do appreciate it. It has helped...
Is the following correct base saves? Code:
1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2 2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3 3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3 4th Monk/Wizard Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5 Hero Lab Resources: Pathfinder - d20pfsrd and Pathfinder Pack Setup 3.5 D&D (d20) - Community Server Setup 5E D&D - Community Server Setup Hero Lab Help - Hero Lab FAQ, Editor Tutorials and Videos, Editor & Scripting Resources. Created by the community for the community - Realm Works kickstarter backer (Alpha Wolf) and Beta tester.- d20 HL package volunteer editor. |
#9 |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 134
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1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2
2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3 3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +4 / Will +3 4th Monk/Wizard Fort +4 / Ref +4 / Will +5 Depends on translation, Gestalt isn't considered multiclassing when it comes to save bonus (from the way I translate the class) in the case of monk every lvl the saves by all means should be 1st Fighter/Monk Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2 2nd Monk/Rogue Fort +2 / Ref +2 / Will +2 3rd Monk/Rogue Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3 4th Monk/Wizard Fort +3 / Ref +3 / Will +3 And I a pretty positive that is by raw, best advancement from all of those lvls is the monk which has good progression on all lvls Raw states ""Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the two classes. Base Saving Throw Bonuses: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class."" To me this simply means you ignore the actual numbers the class itself might get and you advance based on progression, Good progression is +1/2 per lvl after first, Poor progression is + 1/3 which is to say +1 per 2 and +1 per 3 Thus by Raw Saves would gain +1 per 2 lvls of good save progression after the first and +1 per 3 lvls of poor saves after the first. By option rules you would add the fractions together to possibly gain in between those points. So in hopes of clerity, the way I read RAW rules is that you ignor the classes themselves and only look at which saves the class have as good and what ones they have as poor. Then add them up in a fashion similar to Fort / Reflex / Will 1st Fighter/Monk good / good / good 2nd Monk/Rogue good / good / good 3rd Monk/Rogue good / good / good 4th Monk/Wizard good / good / good 5th Wizard/Sorc Poor / Poor / good Fort = Good 1st + 3 Good poor = 2 + (3/ 2 round down) = +3 Fort + (1 Poor / 3 Round down =) +0 = +3 fort Reflex = Good 1st + 3 Good poor = 2 + (3/ 2 round down) = +3 Fort + (1 Poor / 3 Round down =) +0 = +3 Reflex Will = Good 1st + 4 Good poor = 2 + (4/ 2 round down) = +4 Will Note that the ones with all good or all poor progression is exactly the same as any other class with good or poor progression, the points where some are good porgression and some are bad, those are calculated by number of good + number of bad. Thus if a class has 10 lvls and 7 lvls of that have good Fort saves and # lvls of that have poor fort saves then you Look at the chart for 7 lvls of Good and add that to chart for 3 lvls of Poor Saves to get the actual total. This is further backed up by this Raw text ""Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics."" You will note that while gestalt class takes the best aspects of each of the two classes, and applies them to the gestalt class. It is still the same gestalt class it just gets to doppelganger the abilities of other classes, choosing the same class more then once stacks in a way that it gets to doppelganger higher aspects of that class. However threw out it all it is still a single gestalt class. Since it is impossible to take the same class more then a single time via multiclassing that further concretes that a 2nd lvl gestalt is Never multiclassed because in order for that to be true it would have to be a gestalt gestalt which breaks the Raw rules that you can't take a class more then once. In short Gestalt is treated as a single class that has a variable BAB,HD,and Base save Progression. Hell really gestalt CLASS has variable everything but however it is still treated as a single class for all purposes. Hope this might help clarify the raw and optional rules up a little Last edited by stargazer_dragon; July 16th, 2014 at 01:38 PM. |
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