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Whys and Wherefores - Some HLO Insights

sadly our group will not be able to continue with your products.

Because I think its fair to you to explain why:

1. No full offline functionality is a killer. You may tell us to "program it ourselves" so we'll just skip it and manually build our character and use any of the many many PDF creators. We play at a camp once a year. No internet.

2. The subscription model totally kills it. We play with 2 college students and 2 father's. Sorry, ttrpgs aren't getting any of their budget

3. It feels like we don't own what we purchase

But most importantly, it's obvious lone wolf has lost the spirit of the game entirely. TTRPGS are accessible, they cross boundaries and bring people together. This online only subscription model just alienates the poorest. My cousins in South America make $800/mo USD as engineers. They have bandwidth limited internet that's shaky at best. This plus a subscription hurts us.

I understand the economy is shifting to subscriptions as a service, but it's downright anti consumer (this isn't just you, it's happening everywhere).

You claim that HLO is betting on internet connectivity increasing all over. Quick reminder that in the U.S. we are still waiting on 1994s multibillion dollar investment into fibre optic across the u.s.

Question then; why aren't you betting on local processing becoming cheaper and more efficient? Everyday mobile devices and consumer PCs are released at lower pricepoints with greater power.

In the end, we don't understand the financial health of your company, which is what ultimately drives these decisions. It's a shame that a cosmetic DLC wasn't adopted instead for HLC... Skins for the client, simple character model builders with a cosmetic item store, small QoL client modules, etc.

And to those thinking I'm bitter, or cheap, or don't understand the reality of Dev - I'm asking you to consider the opposite; who this alienates

-the college student
-the single parent
-the deployed military member
-the citizen from outside the "1st world"
-the rural resident
-the metered internet user
-the kids, who are genuinely just kids and play out in the world! in forests camping, in school basements, under Bridges... Doesn't anyone here remember this? Playing in an environment that resembles your in-game world even just a little is a magical experience.
 
HLC will alienate the same group, it's not like it was cheap either. Someone with a limited budget probably really shouldn't be spending it on HLC.

Also I do not think you understand LWD reasoning for HLO at all, your reasoning is not any where near what their intent is.
 
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sadly our group will not be able to continue with your products.

I would understand your post if LWD was going exclusively to a subscription model, but they're not. They're still supporting Hero Lab Classic. They even just released a 64-bit version to fix the memory bug. I have some reservations about the subscription model as well. I may or may not subscribe. I'll make that decision when it comes time to do so. But I will happily continue to use HLC offline.

HLC will alienate the same group, it's not like it was cheap either. Someone with a limited budget probably really shouldn't be spending it on HLC.

While this is true, it doesn't require a large initial investment. You can buy a core system and still have fun with that. The real expense comes when you start investing in expansions and multiple systems. But you don't have to buy everything at once.
 
It looks like LWD *is* going to an exclusively online model. From what I've read here on the Forums, Starfinder, Pathfinder 2.0 and Shadowrun 6 will only be available online, no HLC version. If they continue this trend with other new games and versions, HLC will soon be obsolete because it won't support any current games.

I've been using HLC for a long time and will continue to use it as long as I'm playing or running the games it supports; it's by far the best character generator I've used in 40 years of gaming (including ones I've written). I'm not a big fan of online-only services of any kind, but I use them if I don't have another option so I'll probably use HLO if I start playing something only available there.
 
It looks like LWD *is* going to an exclusively online model. From what I've read here on the Forums, Starfinder, Pathfinder 2.0 and Shadowrun 6 will only be available online, no HLC version. If they continue this trend with other new games and versions, HLC will soon be obsolete because it won't support any current games.

I've been using HLC for a long time and will continue to use it as long as I'm playing or running the games it supports; it's by far the best character generator I've used in 40 years of gaming (including ones I've written). I'm not a big fan of online-only services of any kind, but I use them if I don't have another option so I'll probably use HLO if I start playing something only available there.

Exclusively online would mean migrating everything to HLO and HLO only. OP says that they will not be able to continue using LWD products. Maybe I'm reading that context wrong, but it suggests previous use which suggests HLC. If you've already purchased products for HLC, it doesn't make any sense to me to stop using it just because HLO is subscription.
 
As long as they are supporting the older systems, I think many people will be fine as long as they're playing those older systems. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, them supporting those older systems. I have a list outstanding bugs in Mutants and Masterminds, for example. 3E, some of them have been closed, but I have others that have been open over two years. 2E... I'm not holding my breath.

And I get it. Mutants and Mast is pretty much releasing new material once every year or so, and there isn't a good model for Lone Wolf to get any more money from us who've already bought it, unlike things like Pathfinder which are constantly releasing new material to sell in chunks. I'm almost at the point of understanding the Authoring Kit enough that I think I could fix some of those errors by modifying source files, but they're not fixable via the Editor.
 
As long as they are supporting the older systems, I think many people will be fine as long as they're playing those older systems. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, them supporting those older systems. I have a list outstanding bugs in Mutants and Masterminds, for example. 3E, some of them have been closed, but I have others that have been open over two years. 2E... I'm not holding my breath.

And I get it. Mutants and Mast is pretty much releasing new material once every year or so, and there isn't a good model for Lone Wolf to get any more money from us who've already bought it, unlike things like Pathfinder which are constantly releasing new material to sell in chunks. I'm almost at the point of understanding the Authoring Kit enough that I think I could fix some of those errors by modifying source files, but they're not fixable via the Editor.

Just out of curiosity, what are some of the bugs in Mutants and Masterminds?
 
I have no intention of using HLO at all at this time.
1) It doesn't support the original Pathfinder.
2) It doesn't support D&D 5E.
3) I will never play Pathfinder 2. I absolutely hate what they have done to races in it. The rest of PF2 is ok, but the feelign I get from tests I have ran and played is that it fells like D&D4E and I hated that game with a cold, hard passion. It's why I went t the original Pathfinderin tyhe first place.
4) Though I have had to slow done due to illness, I love the customization options available in HLC (scripting, homebrew option, etc.) I am nowhere as good as someone like ShadowChemosh, but I tend to hold my own. I just don't see that campability becoming avbailable in HLO.
5) Quite a few places where I run my games, or play, don't have wireless and its much to great an effort to run an ethernet cable to the game room. My mother doesn't even have Internet (shudder), so when I visit I am without except when visiting my sister nearby (not wwithin Internet leeching range).

So far, I still make heavy use of HLC for all my gaming sessions. For only access, where available, I make heavy use of DnDBeyond. They also have an app for my iPad that allows offline access to all my purchased D&D 5E source material. Something that HLO doesn't allow.

The only reason I switched from Pathfinder to D&D 5E originally is my groups mu7ch prefer the simplicity. Those of my players who have played with PF2 took one look at the builder and told me if we play PF again, they want to stay with PF and not PF2.
 
And, just to make my position clear, if HLO supports M&M and/or the Authoring Kit, I probably will buy it. It's affordable enough for me, I have network connectivity most places, and it would be nice to be able to do work from the web when I'm not at home.
 
I feel a need to show that there are some of us that are really looking forward to HLO and what it will (hopefully) become.

Yes, I've dropped $400-$500 into HLC over the years and I've maxed out how many licenses I can get across the different computers that I use for game preparation, games at my house, games at other locations, etc. I'd love to be able to use it on a tablet or even look at stuff on my phone. HLO hits all those buttons and more. It doesn't have all the functionality (yet!), but I'm guardedly hopeful that that will change over time. AND I can utilize it on non-windows systems. Woo-Hoo!

Yes, there are places without internet access - in fact I'm heading to one this weekend (four days with no net access - *shudder*). I wouldn't consider that a barrier to using HL of either form. We'll use the software to create printed copies of characters in case we choose to play.

You can shake your fist at another company that's choosing to move to a SaS model, but this is the modern world and that's the way it is. I choose to see the benefits it produces rather than negatives. And the subscription price is nowhere near what some businesses charge. Heck, it's less that what I would pay for a single gallon of gas per month.

And before I'm accused of being some kid rolling their eyes at the 'old-folks', my first game of AD&D (back in my teens with a spanking-new Player's Handbook) was played before the first Dungeon Master's Guide was published.

My only grumble is that I'd like to see Realm Works move to a similar model so I can access it on any machine I choose (including Linux systems).
 
The reason stated to go to an Online model was to put forth some features that HLC can not do.

Thus far, this has not happened, and the product is not even up to the HLC standard. Though my belief is that HLO will get some of the features in at some point, the transisiton to the (eventual) replacement for HLC is poorly done. PF1, M&M, Shadowrun and others should have been available from the beginning. Starfinder became an HLO exclusive because of Starship Combat not being able to be done in HLC, but HLO is no closer to it now.

I hope things can be straightened out, but without a way to use this offline for character play, and the ability to load/look at a character from a file, HLO is a difficult sale.
 
Thus far, this has not happened, and the product is not even up to the HLC standard. Though my belief is that HLO will get some of the features in at some point, the transisiton to the (eventual) replacement for HLC is poorly done. PF1, M&M, Shadowrun and others should have been available from the beginning. Starfinder became an HLO exclusive because of Starship Combat not being able to be done in HLC, but HLO is no closer to it now.

Hmm, you can use HLC on your phone or android tablet now?
 
Yes, alongside your primary license we provide you with a secondary license so you can use it on your tablet, or another device.

HLC only if the tablet is running Microsoft Windows, and therefore definitely not on phones.

HLO is on any browser anywhere.
 
Running it on any "device" is a major reason for the change, but it is a question of being worth having to find internet to use it. I hope that some sort of POR file system is being devised for offline use (to view as a character sheet) or some sort of offline use that has the characters in memory for the browser.

Thus far, it does not seem possible, though it is something on the docket.
 
HLC only if the tablet is running Microsoft Windows, and therefore definitely not on phones.

HLO is on any browser anywhere.

or iOS, Apple iPads have a Herolab version, but it doesn't work on the iPhones(which is sad considering the software is the same.)
 
The reason stated to go to an Online model was to put forth some features that HLC can not do.

Thus far, this has not happened, and the product is not even up to the HLC standard. Though my belief is that HLO will get some of the features in at some point, the transisiton to the (eventual) replacement for HLC is poorly done. PF1, M&M, Shadowrun and others should have been available from the beginning. Starfinder became an HLO exclusive because of Starship Combat not being able to be done in HLC, but HLO is no closer to it now.

I hope things can be straightened out, but without a way to use this offline for character play, and the ability to load/look at a character from a file, HLO is a difficult sale.

HLO can generate a PDF that looks exactly like a HLC character sheet.
 
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