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Why gnome speed 35 ft, not 30 ft?

K

Krothos

Well-known member
Attached is my .por file of my warpriest I'm playing in my campaign. He is currently wearing +1 breastplate and medium encumbered. This puts his speed at 15 ft (HL shows this correctly). When adding the haste buff, now his speed is 35 ft. Shouldn't it be 30 ft? What am I missing? Is HL adding 30 ft for the haste buff and then apply armor/encumbrance penalty? If so, this is wrong since haste doubles existing speed, up to 30 ft. Wanted to be sure I'm not missing something before submitting this as a bug to LW.

Thanks!
 

Attachments

Your missing one line of the haste spell. Up to twice your base speed. So what you end up with is base +20, haste +20, encumbrance/ACP -5 = 35
 
Krothos said:
How is the encumbrance/armor penalty only -5 with a hasted movement of 40'? As per RAW for 40 ft of movement, the encumbrance/armor penalized movement is 30'.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/...l#armor-and-encumbrance-for-other-base-speeds

Is there another rule I'm missing? :)
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Because its calculated base off base speed. Haste does not modify base speed, rather it provides and enhancement bonus of up to your base speed or 30 (Whichever is less) Note: Boots of Striding and Springing do not stack with haste either.
 
Minous said:
Because its calculated base off base speed. Haste does not modify base speed, rather it provides and enhancement bonus of up to your base speed or 30 (Whichever is less) Note: Boots of Striding and Springing do not stack with haste either.
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I now understand how you could read the haste spell to come up with how the speed would be 35 ft (20 ft base - armor penalty = 15 ft + 20 ft haste = 35 ft). However, further reading on Paizo's boards under the Rules Questions forum suggests that this understanding is the minority as many have answered that the speed would be 30 ft (20 ft base + 20 ft haste = 40 ft - armor penalty = 30 ft).

Guess I'll just make this a house rule in my game when using HL since it's seems this more interpretation than RAW because of the wording of the effect.
 
Krothos, please just report it as a bug. You've only heard one user's opinion. Let us take a look at this and apply our own judgement as to what the rules should be.

At first glance, this feels like a bug - 35' is the encumbered version of 50', which may mean that it's miscalculating the hasted speed at 50' (base 20 + haste 30, for some reason), and then applying encumbrance down to 35'.
 
We really prefer if our users skip the "is this a bug?" posts, and just report them as soon as they've done a little rules research of their own - why waste time waiting for the forum to respond to you, and then wait more time for us to get a chance to get to the bug?. I've seen "is this a bug" posts that never actually get reported as bugs, because they're not answered by other users quickly, and then they're forgotten about.
 
Looking into how Haste calculates its bonus, this is a bug - it's applying the cap too early - it's turning haste's normal bonus of +30 into +20 (this character's movement speed), instead of applying the cap at the end - twice the character's normal movement speed, or 40'.
 
Oh, and I'm going to need to research this further to see how haste is supposed to interact with encumbrance - when the spell says "the subject's normal speed using that form of movement", is that normal unencumbered speed, or 40' in this case, or normal encumbered speed, or 30' in this case. Seems much more likely to be the encumbered speed - otherwise, this character moves 40' while hasted, which means there's no speed penalty for this character being encumbered as long as he's hasted, since he'd also move 40' while hastened and unencumbered.
 
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Mathias said:
Oh, and I'm going to need to research this further to see how haste is supposed to interact with encumbrance - when the spell says "the subject's normal speed using that form of movement", is that normal unencumbered speed, or 40' in this case, or normal encumbered speed, or 30' in this case. Seems much more likely to be the encumbered speed - otherwise, this character moves 40' while hasted, which means there's no speed penalty for this character being encumbered as long as he's hasted, since he'd also move 40' while hastened and unencumbered.
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The way I read it is that haste does affect base speed up to "double" and then you apply the encumbrance rules.

If you look at the chart at the bottom of THIS page it works out that the gnome should have a 30ft speed.

Gnome base speed 20. Then we give a +30 speed bonus up to double speed giving us a total of 40ft. Then we look at encumbrance chart and see that 40ft base gets you 30ft when encumbered (ie wearing armor).

Net result is 30ft hasted and encumbered and 40ft when hasted with no encumbrance. :) IMHO. ;)
 
Keep in mind that encumbered is calculated off base speed, not current speed.Haste, expeditious retreat and few other spells modify final speed, but the encumbrance is off base speed. With haste and similar spells you have 20 base +20 enhancement bonus, and encumbrance penitaly. If encumbrance was calculated off of current speed they would say it. However they use the term base speed for a reason.
 
Minous said:
Keep in mind that encumbered is calculated off base speed, not current speed.Haste, expeditious retreat and few other spells modify final speed, but the encumbrance is off base speed. With haste and similar spells you have 20 base +20 enhancement bonus, and encumbrance penitaly. If encumbrance was calculated off of current speed they would say it. However they use the term base speed for a reason.
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Is there a stronger support for that than just "they don't say otherwise"?
 
Page 192 of the Core Rulebook: "Always apply any modifiers to a character’s speed before adjusting the character’s speed based on armor or encumbrance, and remember that multiple bonuses of the same type to a character’s speed don’t stack."

There is a thread from 2010 on Paizo.com where they finally quote this page, but then try to show an example showing the haste bonus being applied after the change for encumbrance.

If you want James Jacob's (Creative Director) opinion it, search for Haste in the thread http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=1302?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#65084

The Haste spell doesn't mention base speed, it says "All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet..." (no mention of any particular category of speed deinition.)

This means the examples including haste that have been on d20pfsrd.com in the Glossary since 2010 are wrong.
 
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Farling has it but another way to think about it is, Haste says this 30 feet is an "enhancement bonus". It has to be a bonus to something, so it's a bonus to you base speed(s) for all forms of listed movements.

It also states, "This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed."

Jump is modified if you have a base speed of over/under 30ft. So it would be odd that jump was modified but not your encumbrance...


Also, @Mathis, I think the reason people post vs (or in addition to) submitting a bug is to get an answer. Say, I have a game tomorrow and I'd like to know if HL is calculating something right? If I submit a bug, I have to wait to see if it's fixed (and not sure if you respond to every submission either) so I'm in the dark. Via the forums, the community can usually answer quicker, especially if it's a user error or misinterpretation of the rules.

Personally, I'd love to see some transparency on your bugs/issues. There could be a web page listing all the submitted bugs with a status/eta/version #/etc. Then as a user I can say, "oh look, they are working on it already, cool. Let me hit the +1 to let them know I experienced the bug too..."
 
Farling said:
Page 192 of the Core Rulebook: "Always apply any modifiers to a character’s speed before adjusting the character’s speed based on armor or encumbrance, and remember that multiple bonuses of the same type to a character’s speed don’t stack."

There is a thread from 2010 on Paizo.com where they finally quote this page, but then try to show an example showing the haste bonus being applied after the change for encumbrance.

If you want James Jacob's (Creative Director) opinion it, search for Haste in the thread http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=1302?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#65084

The Haste spell doesn't mention base speed, it says "All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet..." (no mention of any particular category of speed deinition.)

This means the examples including haste that have been on d20pfsrd.com in the Glossary since 2010 are wrong.
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Thanks for the citation. That's how I thought it worked, but it's good to have confirmation.
 
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