What sort of licensing agreement do you have with WOTC?

[Diceman]

There is a debate going occurring on the Wizards of the Coast forums about whether or not the DDi downloader provided with Hero Lab is legal and if it's use is condoned by WOTC as part of your licensing agreement with them.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...is_your_opinion_on_the_Pathfinder_CB_software


you stand to gain a large amount of new customers if you can clear this up.

People like myself are relying on statements made on your website about working with publishers and paying royalties ect. as indications that you and WOTC have a formal binding agreement that allows Hero Lab customers that are current DDI subscribers to use the provided downloader to gather the needed data from the DDi compendium without violating their TOS with DDi.

Typical of any forum debate there are people that are trying to shout down Hero Lab supporters by saying the downloader is not condoned by WOTC and that Lone Wolf is enabling piracy by including the DDi Downloader app with their authoring kit.

They want official proof that these agreements exist. Without that clarification anyone who is suggesting customers look into Hero Labs is getting painted as supporting piracy, and the contention remains that what Lone Wolf is providing with their product is copyright infringement and promoting piracy.

So to sum it all up can you elaborate on the type of agreement you have with WOTC regarding the 4e authoring kit and the ddi downloader application?

 

[Sakri]

Yes, I too need to have confirmation about this before buying, so that I don't have to fear that 4e support for Hero Lab goes away after C&D from WotC.

 

[rob]

IMPORTANT! Please refrain from re-posting this on the Wizards community forums. It can be viewed as inappropriate for a company to talk about their products on another company's forums, so we won't encourage that on the Wizards forums. That also means we won't answer questions posted on the Wizards forums. You are welcome to post a link to this thread if you wish, and please encourage anyone with questions to ask them here on our forums so we can provide answers.

Now on to your questions....

There is no formal license in place with Wizards for our support of D&D 4E - it's the lone exception out of all the games we support. That being said, we've had a good relationship with Wizards for about eight years now (dating back to our Card Vault product well before Hero Lab existed), and our Hero Lab support for 4E has been in place for almost two years now. So we're not anticipating any problems with how Hero Lab works vis-a-vis 4E. Allow me to provide some background and delve into this topic further....

Our working relationship with Wizards began back in late 2002 after we released Card Vault. We obtained permission from Wizards to support all of their CCGs, including advance access to the spoiler data for all those games. We've never had a formal license in place for this, but Wizards has been providing us with that data for 8 years now. They did so even though they had the Magic Online product for which Card Vault could be construed as competition.

When we first started supporting 4E (almost two years ago), we spoke with a senior Wizards staff member about what we were doing. And then we had a follow-up discussion with another senior Wizards staff member a few months after that. In those discussions, we outlined to Wizards how Hero Lab's use of the DDI content required that a valid DDI account be used, which thereby makes it an add-on to DDI and not a replacement. Given the wealth of new content introduced every month by DDI, continued access to that new content entailed an ongoing subscription. That's how Hero Lab has operated for two years now, with Wizards' full knowledge.

During the past two years, Hero Lab has offered a few key abilities over and above what the Character Builder provided. These include (a) the ability to add custom (home-brew) content, (b) convenience as an electronic character sheet at the table with extensive in-play adjustments, and (c) the Tactical Console for GMs to efficiently run encounters. With the new announcement by Wizards that DDI is switching to a purely online solution, Hero Lab has garnered more attention for 4E than before because it will now allow users to continue enjoying offline access with their characters.

So I guess the big question is whether this change in Wizards' strategy will result in a change to how Wizards views Hero Lab. I'll be surprised if it does, since Wizards would have to suddenly view Hero Lab as direct competition that could potentially threaten DDI instead of as a value-added option over and above DDI. On the flip side, all the Wizards staff we've talked to in the past are no longer with the company, so anything is possible.

Since I think the primary goal of your questions is to assess how "safe" Hero Lab is, let's look at what could happen if Wizards changes their view of Hero Lab. The Hero Lab product itself is completely safe - only it's support for 4E could be challenged. I believe the 4E data files themselves should be fine, as they only support the basic game mechanics and not Wizards' D&D content. Based on this, the worst case scenario for Hero Lab users of 4E would be that we have to stop supporting the downloader tool in-house - to my knowledge, that's the only thing Wizards could POSSIBLY insist we stop doing. However, all the code for the downloader tool is public domain, so any 4E player with a little programming knowledge could continue adapting it each month as the compendium is updated. To the best of my knowledge, that's the worst case scenario here, and it presumes Wizards suddenly changes their position towards Hero Lab after two years.

Hopefully, this answers your questions sufficiently. If you have additional questions, please post them here and I'll do my best to answer them.

Thanks, Rob

 

[rob]

IMPORTANT! For the same reasons cited above, please refrain from re-posting this on the Wizards community forums.

One of the accusations made against Hero Lab in the Wizards forums is that Hero Lab actively encourages users to pirate the DDI content. Technically, the Hero Lab data files can be shared with others after being downloaded. However, it should be noted that Hero Lab's approach is arguably LESS prone to piracy than Wizards' own Character Builder. The Character Builder can be downloaded by a user and given to another D&D player for installation on another computer in the exact same manner. The task of downloading and sharing the Character Builder could be accomplished in a matter of minutes, while the Hero Lab downloader takes hours to complete, so that would make it a much less efficient way than simply sharing Wizards' own Character Builder.

The second accusation about copyright infringement is similarly suspect. The Authoring Kit option that is purchased for Hero Lab allows anyone to write custom data files for any RPG game system they want. The Kit includes complete data files (with full source code) for Savage Worlds and 4E, providing two very different examples. The 4E data files provided for Hero Lab implement only the game mechanics, for which copyright protection does not exist (mechanics require patents). The ddidownloader tool makes it possible for legitimate DDI subscribers to access their DDI data and utilize it with Hero Lab. I don't believe there is any copyright infringement at play here.

 

[rob]

Diceman, I just saw the latest thread you started on the Wizards forums. After a few hours, you felt the need to start assuming our motives are criminal? And that we would actually delete your post? Wow!

Please note that Lone Wolf Development is a tiny company with a very small staff. We don't have a dedicated team monitoring the forums 24/7. We saw your post late this afternoon and then needed to carve out the time from a packed schedule to provide a proper reply.

I can wholly understand your desire to get clarification on the situation between Lone Wolf and Wizards. However, please be both realistic and reasonable in (a) your expectations for response times and (b) your unfounded assumption of willful foul-play. Give us a chance to provide you with the information you want and then make an informed assessment.

Please note: I have a packed schedule again tomorrow and throughout the week. I'll do my best to answer questions here, but please don't assume that my inability to respond immediately means we're doing something nefarious. It simply means I've got lots of other responsibilities that I'm tending to and I will get back to you when I can. Thanks!

 

[Diceman]

Diceman, I just saw the latest thread you started on the Wizards forums. After a few hours, you felt the need to start assuming our motives are criminal? And that we would actually delete your post? Wow!

Please note that Lone Wolf Development is a tiny company with a very small staff. We don't have a dedicated team monitoring the forums 24/7. We saw your post late this afternoon and then needed to carve out the time from a packed schedule to provide a proper reply.

I can wholly understand your desire to get clarification on the situation between Lone Wolf and Wizards. However, please be both realistic and reasonable in (a) your expectations for response times and (b) your unfounded assumption of willful foul-play. Give us a chance to provide you with the information you want and then make an informed assessment.

Please note: I have a packed schedule again tomorrow and throughout the week. I'll do my best to answer questions here, but please don't assume that my inability to respond immediately means we're doing something nefarious. It simply means I've got lots of other responsibilities that I'm tending to and I will get back to you when I can. Thanks!

I appreciate the feedback. Thank you for taking the time to explain your situation and history with WOTC.
As far as the thread I started, I admit it was a bit harsh and the tone was probably uncalled for. I will not post any more threads concerning your products on WOTC's website and will direct any further questions regarding Hero lab here.
I can understand having a packed schedule and probably should have waited longer before posting that thread. I was about to go to work on an extended shift myself and a bit of frustration had set in. So if my post caused offense then I offer my apology.

At the end of the day I am just trying to make decisions that are fair to both companies and trying to stay in the spirit of what each company conciders fair use of their products.

 

[Sakri]

Would it be possible for Lone Wolf to acquire a formal license from WotC? I would feel more assured if I choose to buy Hero Lab (the main reason preventing me doing so now is the heavy bugginess of the program, which should also be addressed).

 

[AsmodeusLore]

Hi, Rob.

After reading this thread, I've noticed that you would like people to post here regarding questions for your software. Would you prefer to have the thread started by Diceman in the WotC forums be locked and people directed to your forums for further discussion?

I would also like to point out that we have a dedicated area in the WotC forums for discussion of third-party D&D products. http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75882/135946 If you'd like to maintain a presence there, it would be most welcome.

Thank you.

AsmodeusLore
D&D News Guide

 

[rob]

Would you prefer to have the thread started by Diceman in the WotC forums be locked and people directed to your forums for further discussion?

I would also like to point out that we have a dedicated area in the WotC forums for discussion of third-party D&D products. http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75882/135946 If you'd like to maintain a presence there, it would be most welcome.

I would prefer that thread to be handled either as you propose or moved to a section of the Wizards forums where the participation of company representatives is appropriate - perhaps the third-party products section you suggest. Both approaches are fine with me. I just don't want to be promoting Hero Lab on Wizards' forums in areas where it would be frowned upon.

I just posted a request in the thread on Wizards' forums to do one of the above. That request will hopefully be seen more quickly by the moderators and may direct some of the discussion here.

Thanks!!

 

[rob]

Would it be possible for Lone Wolf to acquire a formal license from WotC? I would feel more assured if I choose to buy Hero Lab (the main reason preventing me doing so now is the heavy bugginess of the program, which should also be addressed).

When Wizards announced 4th Edition, their original plan was to support 3rd party products similarly to how 3rd Edition worked. However, there was a philosophy change when a new executive took over and that didn't happen. To the best of my knowledge, Wizards' official policy is to not formally license anyone to utilize 4th Edition in any way.

I'm not sure what bugs you are referring to. Please post any bugs you encounter in the "Feature Requests/Bug Reports" thread and we'll do our best to get them fixed.

 

[SAbel]

Hello Everyone please sit down get comfy because I have a lot to say on this,
Let me give you a customer point of view. I have purchased Lone wolf products for nearly 10 years (maybe more, Army Builder being the first, then card vault and Hero Lab) the people behind Lone Wolf have outstanding customer support for the size of staff they have. They openly discuss and make changes to the product based on wants and needs of the people, and they work very hard to do it quickly! I have never regretted using any of the products they provide. With that said they also have outstanding character and personal virtue, and to imply that they would engage in "piracy" of any criminal act shows a lack of research on the accusers part, looking over these forums you can see how hard they work to provided and maintain an outstanding company and to promote that people are using the materials wisely. On many occasions Lone Wolf has told people to be care how they act, say and behave on their forums and that use of the programs here does not give people the right to abuse the software. Next if you have ever been to Gen Con then stopping by the Lone Wolf both would instantly allow you to meet and speak with the people behind this company and not just a salesperson looking to acquire your money, how many companies can you say that about after ten years of existence?
If you are questioning if Hero Lab is the right product you for, I will tell you that I have been using Hero Lab since its release and that would include two years of using it under 4E without problems to my DDI account, and after seeing what Hero Lab can do it has even sold several DDI accounts to people in my gaming group and others that like the look and feel of the Hero Lab program. Not only that but it allows you to use several other games systems with similar program familiarity and easy of control. Understanding that this program will give a new option that is now being taken away from the C. B. program, with its move to online only content, you would still need to maintain your DDI account if you want an up to date data stream otherwise you shall be stuck with the last download from your DDI account and then you would have to program in new material for that game system on your own, which you can always do.
Finally when you post here on the Lone Wolf Forums you will receive a response from (more than Likely) an owner of the company and not some part-time/ forum monkey with a generic answer. If you have a bug you will hear from the programmer or one of the other direct employees not someone whom is just making wage to watch and make sure the forums run. This group cares about you the customer and they work ridiculous hours making us happy, new DDI info comes out and one (Colen usually) spend untold hours making sure that the data works and download/converts properly into Hero Lab. If something goes wrong you post it and in about 24 hours he is in touch with you and working on fixing it. There is no other company working for us the gamer that does what Lone Wolf will do, if every other company had the work ethic similar to these guys they would all be tired underpaid and we would be enthusiastic because everything would be done right and if not it would be fixed right away.
I think of these guys as near family and would love to hang out with them more often than just online, they are truly hard working wonderful people that have this company and gaming at heart.
That is all I will say about this topic past the point it makes me very angry that this even needs to be discussed. You could have just posted here “Hey what do you people think of Hero Lab and the company Lone Wolf” that would have gotten you much more favorable results.

SAbel

 

[AsmodeusLore]

Thanks, Rob. We'll be moving your thread over to the Digital D&D area. We don't generally like locking threads, if we can avoid it. Hope to see you in the WotC forums more often. Good luck with your program.

 

[Deathdealer]

Most of the accusers (Jharii, Kenjoon, Ra-Tiel, and Dane_McArdy) accuse first and retract...well, never.

Their attitude seems to be that WotC is never to be questioned, EVER, and that anyone who doesn't show grovelling sycophantic levels of brand-name blindness, er, loyalty is automatically a scum-sucking, thieving data-pirate.

In fact, in their paranoia Jharii and Ra-Tiel have all but claimed that the downloader for HL somehow mind-controls its users to pirate data and trade it illegally online amongst one another.

 

[Taarkoth]

Just signed up to post this. I've used Herolab a good bit for M&M characters and definitely gotten my monies worth from it. I never purchased the 4e addon for it as the CB WotC offered was good enough, but with my frustrations with the new online version, I'm glad to see that your offering should stick around for a while.

So, thank you Rob and the rest of the LW staff. Much appreciated.

 

[Deathdealer]

Just signed up to post this. I've used Herolab a good bit for M&M characters and definitely gotten my monies worth from it. I never purchased the 4e addon for it as the CB WotC offered was good enough, but with my frustrations with the new online version, I'm glad to see that your offering should stick around for a while.

So, thank you Rob and the rest of the LW staff. Much appreciated.

Really? How well does the M&M setup work? I've been thinking about picking up that one, too.

 

[SAbel]

I think it rocks for M&M (I have not used it for the currect edition) but the GM tactical menu makes cobat run smooth and fast easy to keep track of everythign that happens during combat. I have it for a few others (waiting on CoC but I will get it soon.) I have the Cortex system, Savage worlds and 3.5 it does everything I ask and gives me more back.

 

[rob]

Really? How well does the M&M setup work? I've been thinking about picking up that one, too.

You can give it a try for yourself! Just download the M&M data files and play around with it in demo mode. You can experiment with everything to your heart's content. And if you have any questions specifically about M&M, please post those in the M&M forum, since that's where you'll be able to quickly get answers from all the other M&M users.

 

[Deathdealer]

Thanks, Rob!