Version 5.3 of the d20 System data files are now available!

[Kendall-DM]

Next observation then. Did the damage tables change, because it used to be that the damage table for a particular natural weapon at array position [1] (not to be confused with array position [0]) would calculate the damage with the 1.5 Strength damage bonus. Now it seems that all the values in the array are exactly the same damage values, which defeats the purpose of the damage table array in the first place. Sometimes you want half damage, sometimes regular damage, and sometimes 1.5 damage. At the moment, this had really screwed up a number of ways I've been handling damage appropriately.

Any insight into why the damage table was changed this way? Did I make any sense at all? Thanks!

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Next observation then. Did the damage tables change, because it used to be that the damage table for a particular natural weapon at array position [1] (not to be confused with array position [0]) would calculate the damage with the 1.5 Strength damage bonus. Now it seems that all the values in the array are exactly the same damage values, which defeats the purpose of the damage table array in the first place. Sometimes you want half damage, sometimes regular damage, and sometimes 1.5 damage. At the moment, this had really screwed up a number of ways I've been handling damage appropriately.

Any insight into why the damage table was changed this way? Did I make any sense at all? Thanks!

Looking into this. Umm don't have anything yet.

 

[Sendric]

Looking into this. Umm don't have anything yet.

I discovered today that many of the natural weapons created for the Community Set are ignoring the NatTwoHand tag. I suspect there may be other quirks as well. I'll be working on that this week but depending on what weapons you are having problems with this may be the cause.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I discovered today that many of the natural weapons created for the Community Set are ignoring the NatTwoHand tag. I suspect there may be other quirks as well. I'll be working on that this week but depending on what weapons you are having problems with this may be the cause.

Have any examples?

 

[Sendric]

Have any examples?

Yes. The Tail weapon from Custom - New Natural Weapons. To be clear though it's an error in the scripting for that weapon not an error with the tag. Looks like most if not all of the weapons there will need some work.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Yes. The Tail weapon from Custom - New Natural Weapons. To be clear though it's an error in the scripting for that weapon not an error with the tag. Looks like most if not all of the weapons there will need some work.

So these are not actually natural weapons. I see you tried to make them Natural Weapons but they are not built from the compset="NaturalWep" but yours are built from compset="Weapon". If you want these to really be Natural Weapons you need to go into the XML directly and change them to compset="NaturalWep". This would also remove the need of having to have special scripts that take into Secondary Attacks and multiattack feat.

In addition please remove the "<tag group="component" tag="BaseNatWep"/>" tag group as you should never be applying a component.? tag to a Thing.

So try changing this to a real Natural Weapon component and see if your issue goes away. The Helper.Nat? tags where designed to work with Natural Weapons not normal weapons.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Next observation then. Did the damage tables change, because it used to be that the damage table for a particular natural weapon at array position [1] (not to be confused with array position [0]) would calculate the damage with the 1.5 Strength damage bonus. Now it seems that all the values in the array are exactly the same damage values, which defeats the purpose of the damage table array in the first place. Sometimes you want half damage, sometimes regular damage, and sometimes 1.5 damage. At the moment, this had really screwed up a number of ways I've been handling damage appropriately.

Any insight into why the damage table was changed this way? Did I make any sense at all? Thanks!

So still don't have this fixed but I see some of my issues. This was NOT meant to be changed. Sorry! I will have this fixed for the next release.

For future reference the damage table is setup as follows:
0 = mainhand
1 = both hands
2 = mainhand w/ offhand
3 = mainhand w/ light offhand
4 = Off-hand
5 = Double weapon

If you are accessing these array elements please make sure you use one of the following macros to get to the Array Element. This will make your code future proof encase I make changes.

0 = #wepmain[]
1 = #wepboth[]
2 = #wepmain_off[]
3 = #wepmain_offlight[]
4 = #wepoff[]
5 = #wepdouble[]
#wepmax[] = returns the maximum number of array elements.

So lets say you want to get to the both hands element (ie 2H damage) you can do the following:

var X as number
X = #wepboth[]
hero.child[wBite].field[wDamageTbl].arraytext[X]

This way if in the future I change 2H damage to the element 4 I will update the macro #wepboth[] and your scripts will auto-update to the new element also.

 

[Sendric]

So these are not actually natural weapons. I see you tried to make them Natural Weapons but they are not built from the compset="NaturalWep" but yours are built from compset="Weapon". If you want these to really be Natural Weapons you need to go into the XML directly and change them to compset="NaturalWep". This would also remove the need of having to have special scripts that take into Secondary Attacks and multiattack feat.

In addition please remove the "<tag group="component" tag="BaseNatWep"/>" tag group as you should never be applying a component.? tag to a Thing.

So try changing this to a real Natural Weapon component and see if your issue goes away. The Helper.Nat? tags where designed to work with Natural Weapons not normal weapons.

I didn't actually create them, but that is all good to know. I have been scratching my head for a while trying to make these weapons work as natural weapons. I will look into making those changes. Thank you.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Next observation then. Did the damage tables change, because it used to be that the damage table for a particular natural weapon at array position [1] (not to be confused with array position [0]) would calculate the damage with the 1.5 Strength damage bonus. Now it seems that all the values in the array are exactly the same damage values, which defeats the purpose of the damage table array in the first place. Sometimes you want half damage, sometimes regular damage, and sometimes 1.5 damage. At the moment, this had really screwed up a number of ways I've been handling damage appropriately.

Any insight into why the damage table was changed this way? Did I make any sense at all? Thanks!

So another update on this. I don't think this a bug actually. It happens when using the tag "Helper.NatTwoHand" tag.

So I went back and pulled code BEFORE I had made any changes to d20 and tested a Black Bear vs a Black Bear. And for any Natural attacks that are "Secondary" the values of the damage array have always been the same. This example uses the Black Bear with a 18 Str and its Bite is a Secondary attack:

gold v_style 0
gold v_text 1d6+2
gold v_style 1
gold v_text 1d6+2
gold v_style 2
gold v_text 1d6+2
gold v_style 3
gold v_text 1d6+2
gold v_style 4
gold v_text 1d6+2
gold v_style 5
gold v_text 1d6+2{size 40}/+2{revert}

You see see the damage table has 1d6+2 set to all values which is exactly what is seen using the most current data set.

From what I gather this makes sense as it allows the correct value to always display for Secondary Natural Attacks, Natural Attacks with Helper.NatTwoHand tag, or in our new case when the creature has only a "single" primary natural attack. The values in the Damage Table will be the same to make sure that the correct damage value is displayed.

 

[Kendall-DM]

While I don't disagree with that assessment, there are a number of things I've done to leverage that damage table. For example, trample always does the slam damage (if present) plus 1.5 x Str bonus. Unfortunately, the trample ability of most monsters is grossly overpowered (why use a weapon for 3d6 damage plus Str bonus vs. a limited number of opponents when the monster can always cause damage to everyone it can trample over, and at 2d10 plus 1.5 Str bonus instead, for example). I've modified the trample ability to use the slam, hoof, and stamp if present, otherwise to use the unarmed damage plus 1.5 Str bonus. I was leveraging the damage for two-handed to get the appropriate damage without dynamically without having to always input trample for each creature.

For example, last week I had a fight with a Fomorian giant, which has a Slam attack. However, since it was using a oversized flail, the Slam was considered a secondary attack now. Previously, the damage for the trample was displaying correctly as 1d8+18 (Str 34), but after the change to the damage table, it was displaying as 1d8+6, which is now limiting the ability to leverage the damage table.

So, in other words, I can't do this dynamically anymore. The Slam attack is actually the primary natural attack, but because it is using a weapon it is treated as secondary. I didn't do this with just trample either, so I've got my work cut out for me to go through everything and re-code it.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

While I don't disagree with that assessment, there are a number of things I've done to leverage that damage table. For example, trample always does the slam damage (if present) plus 1.5 x Str bonus. Unfortunately, the trample ability of most monsters is grossly overpowered (why use a weapon for 3d6 damage plus Str bonus vs. a limited number of opponents when the monster can always cause damage to everyone it can trample over, and at 2d10 plus 1.5 Str bonus instead, for example). I've modified the trample ability to use the slam, hoof, and stamp if present, otherwise to use the unarmed damage plus 1.5 Str bonus. I was leveraging the damage for two-handed to get the appropriate damage without dynamically without having to always input trample for each creature.

For example, last week I had a fight with a Fomorian giant, which has a Slam attack. However, since it was using a oversized flail, the Slam was considered a secondary attack now. Previously, the damage for the trample was displaying correctly as 1d8+18 (Str 34), but after the change to the damage table, it was displaying as 1d8+6, which is now limiting the ability to leverage the damage table.

So, in other words, I can't do this dynamically anymore. The Slam attack is actually the primary natural attack, but because it is using a weapon it is treated as secondary. I didn't do this with just trample either, so I've got my work cut out for me to go through everything and re-code it.

Before you go crazy let me do some checking to see what happens if I do have the damage tables actually have the correct values. Logically I am on board with the idea that the tables "should" have the correct values. I mean that is the purpose behind them yes.

I already spent hours digging through the scripts so what is a few more. What I need to find is where Natural Attacks are making the decision of which "damage table" value to use as I expect that needs to be changed to use the right Damage Element. Hmmmmm

 

[Kendall-DM]

I'm not advocating a change if that is what it was doing before, if I implied that, it was not my intent. I was just getting my head around it and realizing that the change to natural weapons becoming secondary attacks was the culprit (and I like that change BTW, since it showed me I was using it wrong all this time). It's my software engineering side talking when I say, I would have loved to have kept some backwards compatibility, since I don't think you wanted to go breaking things with changes that are being made. I can live with it, it will just take some coding time on my part to get it all working again. One man's opinion shouldn't color the change that was made, I find no fault in it now that I've got a better understanding of why and how it is supposed to work.

 

[Kendall-DM]

Another thing to add the the wish list. It would be nice to be able to create alternate intelligent items. More specifically:

1. Ability to add additional lesser powers and greater powers.
2. Would be nice if lesser powers can have a skill chooser for those that use it. For example, the ability to choose a Knowledge skill from those skills (minor importance).
3. Ability to add additional item purposes and dedicated powers.
4. For the Ego of the item to show up in the description popup. Currently the Ego is calculated when making the custom item, but doesn't appear anywhere else.
5. A pie in the sky request, the ability to change the communication and senses of the item. For example, my game has an item that is a dwarven waraxe that has 14 Cha, 14 Wis, and 10 Int, but doesn't have Speech. It has Telepathy only with whomever wields it. It also has 60 ft. darkvision rather than the 120 ft. that is listed.
6. Another pie in the sky, the ability to change the default language. Right now it is always Common, however, that makes no sense for something like the dwarven waraxe above. It should be using dwarven, not Common, for its language (minor importance).
7. Ability to add intelligence to a Specifc item. Currently, a specific item cannot be customized, and intelligent items can only be created through the custom menu. For example, making an Holy Avenger into an intelligent item.
8. Ability to add a personality text (minor importance).

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Another thing to add the the wish list. It would be nice to be able to create alternate intelligent items. More specifically:

1. Ability to add additional lesser powers and greater powers.
2. Would be nice if lesser powers can have a skill chooser for those that use it. For example, the ability to choose a Knowledge skill from those skills (minor importance).
3. Ability to add additional item purposes and dedicated powers.
4. For the Ego of the item to show up in the description popup. Currently the Ego is calculated when making the custom item, but doesn't appear anywhere else.
5. A pie in the sky request, the ability to change the communication and senses of the item. For example, my game has an item that is a dwarven waraxe that has 14 Cha, 14 Wis, and 10 Int, but doesn't have Speech. It has Telepathy only with whomever wields it. It also has 60 ft. darkvision rather than the 120 ft. that is listed.
6. Another pie in the sky, the ability to change the default language. Right now it is always Common, however, that makes no sense for something like the dwarven waraxe above. It should be using dwarven, not Common, for its language (minor importance).
7. Ability to add intelligence to a Specific item. Currently, a specific item cannot be customized, and intelligent items can only be created through the custom menu. For example, making an Holy Avenger into an intelligent item.
8. Ability to add a personality text (minor importance).

Yep agree with everything you have but I am going to have to rate this as "really" low on priority scale. Intelligent items while used are not used as often as the base classes or spells.

But I will add it to the TO-DO list.

 

[Sendric]

I don't see this actually. The text looks correct on both Quicken and Empower Spell-Like feats.

This appears to have cropped up again(?). The feat in question is Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fQuickSpel), and the summary is that of Empower Spell-Like Ability.

 

[Sendric]

The Value tag appears to be changing damage bonus for all weapons when applied to natural weapons. For example, if you bootstrapped "wSlam" and added the tag "Value.2" you will see that the damage for Slam is correct, but all other weapons are getting 1.5x STR bonus for extra damage. In the case of a creature with a STR score of 27 (+8 modifier), adding this x2 Slam attack results in the unarmed strike damage increasing from xdx+8 to xdx+12.

No Value tag: Natural Weapon gains 1.5x STR bonus; other weapons ok.
Value.1: Natural Weapon gains 1.5x STR bonus; other weapons ok.
Value.2: Natural Weapon ok; other weapons gain 1.5x STR bonus
Value.3 or more: All weapons ok.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

This appears to have cropped up again(?). The feat in question is Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fQuickSpel), and the summary is that of Empower Spell-Like Ability.

Will take a look.

The Value tag appears to be changing damage bonus for all weapons when applied to natural weapons. For example, if you bootstrapped "wSlam" and added the tag "Value.2" you will see that the damage for Slam is correct, but all other weapons are getting 1.5x STR bonus for extra damage. In the case of a creature with a STR score of 27 (+8 modifier), adding this x2 Slam attack results in the unarmed strike damage increasing from xdx+8 to xdx+12.

No Value tag: Natural Weapon gains 1.5x STR bonus; other weapons ok.
Value.1: Natural Weapon gains 1.5x STR bonus; other weapons ok.
Value.2: Natural Weapon ok; other weapons gain 1.5x STR bonus
Value.3 or more: All weapons ok.

Will take a look.

 

[Riaridus]

i'd like to see more classes if it's possible

 

[Sendric]

i'd like to see more classes if it's possible

We're working on it. The core data files can only contain the srd classes, so we the community have to add the other classes ourselves. There's a lot of non-srd content, so it takes time.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

i'd like to see more classes if it's possible

So to extend what Sendric said the CORE d20 files will only contain the information you find on the SRD. The plan is to make sure I support everything including Epic from the SRD rules. But LW does not have an official license with WotC and I am NOT allowed to input or do work for anything outside of the SRD rules.

At the same time I can add new features into d20 mechanics that will allow the Community to better support stuff. In example putting in the structures for say Book of Nine Swords maneuvers/stances. But I myself could never actually input the data into HL. Similar to how "Skill Tricks" can be entered into the Editor but HL does not come with Skill Tricks.

Does that all make sense?