Ultimate Equipment Items Locked Down

[gcpeart]

I've purchased the licence for Ultimate Equipment, but I can't use items from it in the hl editor, I get the error that the item is not copyable/writable.

I've activated my licence after purchase to make the items available in the character builder, just they don't work in the editor. Is their some voodoo required?

 

[Mathias]

You're not prevented from bringing it into the editor - just from saving what you brought into the editor.

That means you can create a new blank item, and copy everything from the original to that blank item, or you can study the scripts and use them as a template to build something else.

 

[Unseelie]

Hypothetically speaking, how much more would we have to pay for the data files for it to be worth it for Lone Wolf to NOT lock things down. More and more as I world build, this actually gets in my way. Some sort of model for buying per GM would be marvelous.

Also, knowing that all of this material is SRD and therefore there's unlikely to be any encouragement from Paizo to lock things down adds to the frustration.

The fact that stuff is locked down is actually an encouragement to not use new Paizo material because it would require all of my players to ALSO buy the data files OR for me to do a lot of work to create a replace thing that will break if the data is ever changed.

Spells and gear (magic or otherwise) are the items that I am most likely to want to be able to grab from another book.

At this rate, my next game will be core books only just so I don't have to deal with all of the extra work just so my players can have camels as a mount, or carry around a Pathfinder Pouch.

 

[Mathias]

it would require all of my players to ALSO buy the data files OR for me to do a lot of work to create a replace thing that will break if the data is ever changed.

And you've hit on the reason for this - piracy - if they're not locked down, someone could go through an entire package, quickly copying everything, and give it to others who hadn't purchased that package.

 

[Unseelie]

And you've hit on the reason for this - piracy - if they're not locked down, someone could go through an entire package, quickly copying everything, and give it to others who hadn't purchased that package.

No, I get why. I'm pointing out how this piracy protection is seriously inconveniencing your paying customers as well. It's why I asked how much more someone would hypothetically need to pay to grant a 'campaign license.'

In addition to my copy of HL, plus extra machine licenses and all of the data files I bought five copies of Hero Lab for my players, which ended up being a waste of money because I still have to maintain all of their characters. This makes me less likely to a) use future Paizo PF products because it just compounds the issue, and b) makes it less likely that I will buy new data packages from Lone Wolf.

Assuming my group still wants to play Pathfinder when this Adventure Path is finished, my next game will be core only. No exceptions. Any exception whatsoever creates more work for me. I'd love to have some sort of an alternative.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I am not following how its causing you so much work. My games run with almost every book Paizo has produced and we have a good number of houserules running also. So far its not that big of a amount of work on my end to do this. So if you went into detail maybe their is an easier way to accomplish what your trying to do.

So why do you need so many replaces for items. Do you have that many houserules that are in affect for every animal or magic item?

 

[Unseelie]

I am not following how its causing you so much work. My games run with almost every book Paizo has produced and we have a good number of houserules running also. So far its not that big of a amount of work on my end to do this. So if you went into detail maybe their is an easier way to accomplish what your trying to do.

So why do you need so many replaces for items. Do you have that many houserules that are in affect for every animal or magic item?

I'd like for my players to maintain their own character sheets. The Wizard and the Druids both have spells from UM, both Druids ride camels for their mounts, and several of them now have magic items from UE.

I could have, and probably should have said no or "only if you own the data files" but what it means is that anything from a secondary purchase that's locked down requires me to manually copy all of the data over. Maybe all of them don't have to be replace things, but its a bunch of work I would rather not do. As such, it is an active discouragement from allowing anything not from the core books, and if I'm not going to use it, then the second question becomes "Well then, why buy it?"

Again, I understand why items are locked. I work in the computer industry myself. So that I'm clear, I'm suggesting as a paying customer that I would prefer an alternative that did not inconvenience me as much as it inconveniences non-customers (i.e.. pirates)

Like I said before, I bought copies of HL for everyone in my game. Sadly, I did not think this through before I did so as that was a complete waste. The moment they have anything from another book, the choices become a) they buy the data files as well (and do you really blame a player for not wanting to spend $5 just so they can ride a camel), or b) I have to maintain their character for them.

Edit: I am using camel mounts as a quick example, as I do not have my data files in front of me. It may, in fact, be a bad example - I can't remember if the mount thing for camels is locked or not. Regardless, as I said, once something from another book ends up in their possession, it creates this frustration.

 

[Unseelie]

Also, to be fair... I am seriously off topic now. If someone wants to move the rest of this discussion elsewhere, I certainly have no objections.

 

[Illydth]

Unseelie: The complaint you seem to be identifying is "If all 5 of my characters want to use a spell from Unlimited Magic, the DM and the Character have to each spend the $5 to use the spell from Ulimited Magic"

I get the argument, if You buy the Unlimited Magic sourcebook from Paizo (or go to the SRD online) you've got all the information in Umlimited Magic, meaning for the $40 cost of the book, all 6 people in your campaign (5 players and the DM) all have access to that information. Your complaint is that with the Hero Labs method, all of you have to buy all of the data packages to be able to maintain your characters OR you the DM have to buy all of the packages and maintain your character's data.

The "Work" you are talking about, to my understanding, is that you are attempting to re-create everything that your players are using out of alternate source materials by hand from scratch on all 5 of the alternate copies of Hero Labs that each of your players are using. So if all 5 of your players want to use a given spell from Unlimited Magic, you're having to go into all 5 copies of Hero Labs your players are using and create that spell from scratch.

If I am correct in the above you are, in essence, complaining that you cannot easily copy the work of the Hero Labs development staff to allow you to easily provide your paid for source data on your friend's Hero Labs installations where that source data has not been paid for.

While I don't work for Hero Labs, I'd have to say that this is...just to make a guess...intentional since the payment model for Hero Labs is that each player using Hero Labs requires a paid for copy of each source data package sold by WolfLair. By re-creating that data on your friends copies you are, in essence, pirating that data and then complaining it's not being made easier by Wolf Lair for you to do so.

This isn't an intent to slam you in any way, I get your point with the SRD being out there and the fact that with the physical books, one single copy provides all of your players all of the source information you need usable by everyone.

That, however, simply isn't the payment model for Hero Labs and it's data files. Wolf Lair believes that the work they put into "labsifying" all of the released source data and rules from each released pathfinder (and other) resource provides an additional benefit to you over just reading and hand-implementing the rules out of a sourcebook or SRD.

And obviously it does...you are chosing to use Hero Lab over just creating paper character sheets...there must be a benefit / convenience to doing so.

If your comment is "Having to pay for all the data multiple times isn't worth the cost of using your product" I believe that WolfLair would say "That's your choice, we believe the convenience of having all of the rules applied for you and all the data at your fingertips to be worth the cost, but that's obviously your choice."

RE-creating all of that data machine to machine, installation to installation SHOULD be a pain in the *** simply because that's how they keep you from pirating their work.

I'm unsure what WolfLair's policy/EULA would say about this, keep in mind that you do get 2 installations of HeroLabs for free and 2 more alternate licenses for a discounted price...and all of those licenses share your expansion data purchases. While I"m not sure if it's legal for you to supply alternate license copies to each of your friends, as you said, you've purchased HeroLabs for each of your 5 players...perhaps your solution would be to obtain all 3 "Alternate" licenses for one of your master licenses (that would be 4) purchase all of the data packages you need, and then install the alternate licenses on your friend's copies. Obviously you'd need to do this twice (for the 5th player) but it's certainly a less expensive option than purchasing all of the data packages for all 5 of the machines.

Again, you'll want to talk with WolfLair/read the EULA to see if this breaks their licensing terms. Obviously if this is against licensing terms you shouldn't do this. As well, perhaps if you contact Wolf Lair and explain your situation (assuming you've already purchased 5 copies of HeroLabs/pathfinder at $30 each) they may be able to work something out with you...or not, depending upon their sales force.

One more suggestion if none of this works...why does each of your players need a copy of Hero Labs themselves? WOuld it be possible to take an hour break for character upgrade periodicaly, pass your copy of hero labs around on your laptop and let everyone upgrade their own characters? That way you still only need 1 set of licenses and, just like with the books, you are using that resource in a shared method. Print a set of character sheets for each player for table top play and let them make the changes they mark to their characters at the end of each session on the master Hero Labs copy.

--Illydth

 

[Unseelie]

Unseelie: The complaint you seem to be identifying is "If all 5 of my characters want to use a spell from Unlimited Magic, the DM and the Character have to each spend the $5 to use the spell from Ulimited Magic"

I get the argument, if You buy the Unlimited Magic sourcebook from Paizo (or go to the SRD online) you've got all the information in Umlimited Magic, meaning for the $40 cost of the book, all 6 people in your campaign (5 players and the DM) all have access to that information. Your complaint is that with the Hero Labs method, all of you have to buy all of the data packages to be able to maintain your characters OR you the DM have to buy all of the packages and maintain your character's data.

The "Work" you are talking about, to my understanding, is that you are attempting to re-create everything that your players are using out of alternate source materials by hand from scratch on all 5 of the alternate copies of Hero Labs that each of your players are using. So if all 5 of your players want to use a given spell from Unlimited Magic, you're having to go into all 5 copies of Hero Labs your players are using and create that spell from scratch.

If I am correct in the above you are, in essence, complaining that you cannot easily copy the work of the Hero Labs development staff to allow you to easily provide your paid for source data on your friend's Hero Labs installations where that source data has not been paid for.

While I don't work for Hero Labs, I'd have to say that this is...just to make a guess...intentional since the payment model for Hero Labs is that each player using Hero Labs requires a paid for copy of each source data package sold by WolfLair. By re-creating that data on your friends copies you are, in essence, pirating that data and then complaining it's not being made easier by Wolf Lair for you to do so.

This isn't an intent to slam you in any way, I get your point with the SRD being out there and the fact that with the physical books, one single copy provides all of your players all of the source information you need usable by everyone.

That, however, simply isn't the payment model for Hero Labs and it's data files. Wolf Lair believes that the work they put into "labsifying" all of the released source data and rules from each released pathfinder (and other) resource provides an additional benefit to you over just reading and hand-implementing the rules out of a sourcebook or SRD.

And obviously it does...you are chosing to use Hero Lab over just creating paper character sheets...there must be a benefit / convenience to doing so.

If your comment is "Having to pay for all the data multiple times isn't worth the cost of using your product" I believe that WolfLair would say "That's your choice, we believe the convenience of having all of the rules applied for you and all the data at your fingertips to be worth the cost, but that's obviously your choice."

RE-creating all of that data machine to machine, installation to installation SHOULD be a pain in the *** simply because that's how they keep you from pirating their work.

I'm unsure what WolfLair's policy/EULA would say about this, keep in mind that you do get 2 installations of HeroLabs for free and 2 more alternate licenses for a discounted price...and all of those licenses share your expansion data purchases. While I"m not sure if it's legal for you to supply alternate license copies to each of your friends, as you said, you've purchased HeroLabs for each of your 5 players...perhaps your solution would be to obtain all 3 "Alternate" licenses for one of your master licenses (that would be 4) purchase all of the data packages you need, and then install the alternate licenses on your friend's copies. Obviously you'd need to do this twice (for the 5th player) but it's certainly a less expensive option than purchasing all of the data packages for all 5 of the machines.

Again, you'll want to talk with WolfLair/read the EULA to see if this breaks their licensing terms. Obviously if this is against licensing terms you shouldn't do this. As well, perhaps if you contact Wolf Lair and explain your situation (assuming you've already purchased 5 copies of HeroLabs/pathfinder at $30 each) they may be able to work something out with you...or not, depending upon their sales force.

One more suggestion if none of this works...why does each of your players need a copy of Hero Labs themselves? WOuld it be possible to take an hour break for character upgrade periodicaly, pass your copy of hero labs around on your laptop and let everyone upgrade their own characters? That way you still only need 1 set of licenses and, just like with the books, you are using that resource in a shared method. Print a set of character sheets for each player for table top play and let them make the changes they mark to their characters at the end of each session on the master Hero Labs copy.

--Illydth

Like I said, in retrospect, the $150 I spent buying everyone a copy of Hero Lab was a waste of money. I'd have happily just given Lone Wolf that $150 so I didn't have to maintain everyone's character sheet, since that was what I was trying to do to begin with.

It's not that I mind the money. I don't want to force my players to spend the money when that data is much less useful to them than it is for the GM. I already have three licenses... I could consolidate that down to one for my own use, lose the convenience of having HL on both my laptop & desktop, and use the other two for players, but they sell a max of four as far as I know and I would need, umm, six. If I could do that, that would be an acceptable solution and you'll note that what I asked for was a license for my group (which this basically is).

Basically, I'm asking for some other way of protecting things, or some other payment model that doesn't penalize me as much as it does pirates. I've already given them several hundred dollars, so I'm clearly willing to give them more money to do less work. There has to be some other way...

This would be much easier if things stayed with the portfolio and didn't invalidate the moment a data file isn't available.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Thanks Unseelie I see what your saying now. I wish I had some good advice but not really. The best I can say is that yea if the player does not have the Data package they can't use that Thing. I don't see it any difference when I was doing 3.5 and the players not only had to own a book if needed I was to be allowed to borrow the book and read up on their Thing they wanted.

So in this case if they really want to use that "extra" thing (Camel, Spell) they need to A) buy the package or B) learn to enter the Thing themselves.

So for my group I have allowed players to even use some 3PP stuff but they then where often required to Enter the stuff into HL and send me the .user file. Which often I put little fixes in quick or do something maybe they didn't know how but the bulk of that work is on the players. Then I maintain a central repository that gets distributed to everyone so we are all running the same data package.

Maybe instead of putting the cost and time for this on yourself you should push back on to your players. They want that Camel great enter it into HL and send you the .user file. Or they spend some money and purchase it.

I have to say I do want you as a DM as you seem SUPER freaking nice to your players!!!!

 

[Aaron]

In my personal game, I print character sheets and have the players record changes on there, and every time they level up I update the portfolio on my system and re-print out the character sheets. That way my players don't have to buy stuff themselves, but I don't have to enter things for them. It is a little inconvienant that they can't change their stuff in HL on the fly, but it works. Just an option for you.

 

[Umarian]

I have to agree with ShadowChemosh with having them code their own stuff. (Since I am one of those people in his group that he made learn how to do it.) It will take some of the pressure off of you, and it will help them learn their characters abilities.

In my case, it actually taught me more of the rules than reading the book did. When you have to pay attention to the details to code it correctly, you can catch that one piece that you were missing before, or the rule that governs that ability. It helped me learn a better understanding of things.

I even started trying to do it with my other groups, and they are enjoying it and coming up with their own stuff to do with it also.

 

[Theocrat]

I am unsure if this is an option. I own HL on my desktop and have two laptops. I had to buy a 3rd license for the use to place it on my additional laptop. Could you have just purchased 3-8 add-on's to your license and had that installed on the additional laptops? I don't wish to advocate something wrong via the EULA (being that I've hardly ever read it myself) but is it possible for that as an option? Although having now bought 5 additional licenses it seems that doing that would be an additional cost at nearly $10 an add-on.
I can see your frustration as well. I have PF, SR4e, 3.5 and another setting and have all the PF datasets and several of the SR4e datasets. Maintaining that cost for all the other laptops would be astronomical. For me as a player and GM, because I have all the datasets, it gives me an advantage that some of my fellows don't have. But we all have the actual books, so to me its not much of an advantage. Well, and even after 33+ years of gaming - I can't make a character without HL. Too many feats, skills and options to keep it all in my little head.

 

[Unseelie]

I am unsure if this is an option. I own HL on my desktop and have two laptops. I had to buy a 3rd license for the use to place it on my additional laptop. Could you have just purchased 3-8 add-on's to your license and had that installed on the additional laptops? I don't wish to advocate something wrong via the EULA (being that I've hardly ever read it myself) but is it possible for that as an option? Although having now bought 5 additional licenses it seems that doing that would be an additional cost at nearly $10 an add-on.
I can see your frustration as well. I have PF, SR4e, 3.5 and another setting and have all the PF datasets and several of the SR4e datasets. Maintaining that cost for all the other laptops would be astronomical. For me as a player and GM, because I have all the datasets, it gives me an advantage that some of my fellows don't have. But we all have the actual books, so to me its not much of an advantage. Well, and even after 33+ years of gaming - I can't make a character without HL. Too many feats, skills and options to keep it all in my little head.

I haven't taken a look at their EULA myself, but I believe they will sell you no more than 2 additional licenses. If I could buy 6 or more total licenses, AND it wasn't a violation of the agreement (if it is), that would work for me. Heck, I'd even pay the full price of HL for licenses past four (rather than the discounted rate) if this was a valid use.

 

[Unseelie]

Thanks Unseelie I see what your saying now. I wish I had some good advice but not really. The best I can say is that yea if the player does not have the Data package they can't use that Thing. I don't see it any difference when I was doing 3.5 and the players not only had to own a book if needed I was to be allowed to borrow the book and read up on their Thing they wanted.

So in this case if they really want to use that "extra" thing (Camel, Spell) they need to A) buy the package or B) learn to enter the Thing themselves.

So for my group I have allowed players to even use some 3PP stuff but they then where often required to Enter the stuff into HL and send me the .user file. Which often I put little fixes in quick or do something maybe they didn't know how but the bulk of that work is on the players. Then I maintain a central repository that gets distributed to everyone so we are all running the same data package.

Maybe instead of putting the cost and time for this on yourself you should push back on to your players. They want that Camel great enter it into HL and send you the .user file. Or they spend some money and purchase it.

I have to say I do want you as a DM as you seem SUPER freaking nice to your players!!!!

Thanks.

Part of my frustration is, even if I (or the players) do the work, we're forced to do it in a manner that I'd consider incorrect. Let's go for the camel example again:

I have the bestiary, so all that really needs to be done is create a minion/hirelings thing so that there is a price set for a camel mount. (I know they don't have UE).

Except that I can't assume that my players have purchased the bestiary, so I also need to make a copy of the camel. Unless I want to deal with having two camels on my end, that camel would need to use a replace thing so as to replace the existing camel.

The problem, as I understand things, is that if I do that and distribute a data file with both the camel and the minion things, that replace thing will break the moment I give it to them... because they don't have the thing that it's replacing. This means that the only viable solution is for me, as the GM, to have to deal with the mess this creates.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Except that I can't assume that my players have purchased the bestiary, so I also need to make a copy of the camel. Unless I want to deal with having two camels on my end, that camel would need to use a replace thing so as to replace the existing camel.

The problem, as I understand things, is that if I do that and distribute a data file with both the camel and the minion things, that replace thing will break the moment I give it to them... because they don't have the thing that it's replacing. This means that the only viable solution is for me, as the GM, to have to deal with the mess this creates.

What you have listed above is basically all correct. What you mostly like would want to do instead the Replace Thing ID which will break is source your camel to your game system. Then simply turn off Bestiary and you will see only one camel.

Another idea, a little more advance, is to keep a .user file that is only on YOUR computer and never given to your players (ie Hidden.user). This would simply be used to do a *PRECLUDE ( a tab in the editor) of the Camel from the Bestiary on your computer only when you have your Game Source Turned on.

This way your players only see the Custom Camel as they have no Bestiary. You only see the Custom Camel when you turn on your Game Source. This way if you wanted to see the Real Bestiary or UE Things you would just turn off your game source and BOOM all official items get shown.

When you turn on your Game source only the Custom version of Things will be displayed. As you never give your players this "Hidden.user" file their stuff will just load up the custom creations only.


Example:
All my house rules run under "Shadow d20" (source.srcShdwd20)
1) So I make a new version of the Camel(thingid.rS2Camel)
2) in my Hidden.user file on the *PRECLUDE tab I have it set so when Shadow d20 is ON the official Camel is hidden.
-- srcShdwd20 rCamel
3) Do not distribute Hidden.user to your players. They only ever see rS2Camel and now you only ever see rS2Camel as long as "Shadow d20" source is active.
Note: Interchange names above with your own stuff.


No replace thing needed. Hope that helps.

 

[Unseelie]

What you have listed above is basically all correct. What you mostly like would want to do instead the Replace Thing ID which will break is source your camel to your game system. Then simply turn off Bestiary and you will see only one camel.

Another idea, a little more advance, is to keep a .user file that is only on YOUR computer and never given to your players (ie Hidden.user). This would simply be used to do a *PRECLUDE ( a tab in the editor) of the Camel from the Bestiary on your computer only when you have your Game Source Turned on.

This way your players only see the Custom Camel as they have no Bestiary. You only see the Custom Camel when you turn on your Game Source. This way if you wanted to see the Real Bestiary or UE Things you would just turn off your game source and BOOM all official items get shown.

When you turn on your Game source only the Custom version of Things will be displayed. As you never give your players this "Hidden.user" file their stuff will just load up the custom creations only.


Example:
All my house rules run under "Shadow d20" (source.srcShdwd20)
1) So I make a new version of the Camel(thingid.rS2Camel)
2) in my Hidden.user file on the *PRECLUDE tab I have it set so when Shadow d20 is ON the official Camel is hidden.
-- srcShdwd20 rCamel
3) Do not distribute Hidden.user to your players. They only ever see rS2Camel and now you only ever see rS2Camel as long as "Shadow d20" source is active.
Note: Interchange names above with your own stuff.


No replace thing needed. Hope that helps.

That's clever. I'll have to play with that. Thanks.

 

[lortondm]

I have a different Ultimate Equipment question. I bought the Ultimate Equipment dataset. If I start a new character portfolio, I'm able to see new items like the book of letters. But if I open a character portfolio I'd created before I bought the new dataset, I can't add the book of letter to that character's gear. It doesn't show up. How can I fix?

 

[bodrin]

I have a different Ultimate Equipment question. I bought the Ultimate Equipment dataset. If I start a new character portfolio, I'm able to see new items like the book of letters. But if I open a character portfolio I'd created before I bought the new dataset, I can't add the book of letter to that character's gear. It doesn't show up. How can I fix?

CTRL+K configure hero, select ultimate equipment source that should enable you to add UE items.