Two Different Arcane Backgrounds?

[TCArknight]

I'm at a wall.

In Savage Rifts, the Mystic Iconic Framework (i.e. 'class' ) has the unique ability of having two seperate AB's, Arcane Background (Miracles) and Arcane Background (Psionics). Each set of Powers/Power Points is Seperate.

However, currently there can only be one AB per character, and if multiple are bootstrapped then the Power Points add together along with the Starting powers. Unfortunately, the Powers themselves aren't available for selection.

Any suggestions on how to handle this?

Thanks!
Thomas

 

[SeeleyOne]

Rifts is naughty like that. Well, at least we now have an official Savage Worlds product that does it --- I have been wanting to remove this limitation for many years.

I do have some ideas.

The better idea would require a special "New Power" Edge for one of the Arcane backgrounds, and this Edge would use a drop-down that would look for the Powers component. This will let you pick a power. I would make it user2, that way you can use a Domain to specify a trapping in text.

As for Power Points, they are totally 100% separate, right? I would consider going with a Derived Trait for the second PP pool, but my preferred method is to have the second Arcane background get its own free Edge that is used to display and calculate its own Power Points pool. This edge would have an eval script that would figure out how many power points it has, look up any of its own special "Power Points" edges and if present then they would be applied inside that script, then have it display this at the end of the script. You can also tie this into a custom-made Power Point counter so that it can also be used in the "In-Play" tab. I have done all of this, it can be done and is not very hard to do.

But ideally is for Hero Lab to start allowing for multiple Arcane Backgrounds. There are a few places to tweak, but not all that many overall.

 

[Gelfarin]

Hi TCArknight! It's cool to see you're working away on this. We communicated briefly through email, please let me know when you're ready for me to type up more descriptions. I can also do simple items that don't require that bootstrapping/scripting stuffs. Thanks for your hard work!

 

[TCArknight]

Rifts is naughty like that. Well, at least we now have an official Savage Worlds product that does it --- I have been wanting to remove this limitation for many years.

I do have some ideas.

I guess until now, no one considered that that would be done that way.... Now we know.

The better idea would require a special "New Power" Edge for one of the Arcane backgrounds, and this Edge would use a drop-down that would look for the Powers component. This will let you pick a power. I would make it user2, that way you can use a Domain to specify a trapping in text.

I somewhat have this prepared. In SaR there are two different 'types' of power points. PPE for arcane-related powers, and ISP for psionic-related powers.

I've created each as a new derived trait, so I just need to populate them as needed. However, now that I think about it, maybe they need to be two new Resources so they can sync up like current PP. I chose derived traits because it would be easy to show them in the summary/Statblock/Sheet. Should be just as easy to do as a resource, correct?

As for Power Points, they are totally 100% separate, right? I would consider going with a Derived Trait for the second PP pool, but my preferred method is to have the second Arcane background get its own free Edge that is used to display and calculate its own Power Points pool. This edge would have an eval script that would figure out how many power points it has, look up any of its own special "Power Points" edges and if present then they would be applied inside that script, then have it display this at the end of the script. You can also tie this into a custom-made Power Point counter so that it can also be used in the "In-Play" tab. I have done all of this, it can be done and is not very hard to do.

But ideally is for Hero Lab to start allowing for multiple Arcane Backgrounds. There are a few places to tweak, but not all that many overall.

I was thinking, would it be possible to duplicate the Arcane tab and split it into a Arcane one and a Psionic table relating the PPE/ISP as appropriate? I guess I would need a new ArcPowers resource and PsiPowers resource as well in that case.

Thoughts?

 

[SeeleyOne]

I would do both, a derived trait and a resource. The resources do not print out, but the derived traits do. You can set the derived trait to also sync the resource.

We cannot mess with the tabs through our eval scripts. But ideally each Arcane Background could have its own. They would probably also need their own type of Power Points.

 

[TCArknight]

Is there a Hidetab tag that could use to prevent the current Arcane tab from showing?

 

[SeeleyOne]

Yeah, there is. That is why we do not see an Arcane tab all of the time.

 

[CapedCrusader]

Multiple Arcane Backgrounds presents a serious issue with the current architecture of Hero Lab. There's simply no easy way around it. It's designed with the idea that AB's are singular and mutually exclusive. Changing it is really difficult, because of a GM's ability to add new AB's at the drop of a hat. Changes to accommodate multiple AB's would likely interfere with that ability, or at least make it more detailed.

It would probably be easier to set up an AB that is that particular combination. The only issue I can see right off-hand is the whole keeping the Powers/Power Points separate issue. How important is that, really? The trappings description area gives you a place to differentiate them. I'm trying to think of ways that we can set it up so we can cover as many bases as possible using what's already available.

 

[salcor]

Could you set up an AB like the Supers AB which allows you to identify the specific powers each part of the AB supports.

Salcor

 

[CapedCrusader]

Are the two Power lists completely different? Are there Powers that are common between the two? I would assume that there are common elements between the two.

The bottom line is, does it really matter? It may not be able to tell you up front, but I'm thinking a validation could be set up to evaluate the choices after the fact and alert you that you chose too many off one list and not the other.

 

[SeeleyOne]

Yeah, put "PPE" or something in the trapping so you know which it is for.

The main issue is keeping the power points separate. There are ways for the powers.

Another way for powers to be distinct is to have a version for the Edge for New Power where you show which it is in a drop-down. This would make it so that you can look at the list of Edges and it will differentiate it for you "Power(Magic)(Bolt)" and "Power(Psionic)(Telekinesis)". For this to work the new power is "New Power(Magic)" or "New Power(Psionic)" which then have a dropdown for Components.Power for powers that are on the hero, with the Short Name (at the bottom of the listing in the editor). You could either make it two New Power Edges and select which one you want, or you could have it be one with a dropdown of its own that uses two simples, one for magic, the other for psionics. In either case, have the Arcane Background be set to 0 powers, but then it bootstraps the relevant New Power edge multiple times, like 2 times for magic and 2 times for psionics or whatever it is, which is a reason to make 2 separate versions instead of the dropdown with simples.

 

[salcor]

You could also do the same thing with power points. Set up power points to choose between ISP and PPE. The set the arcane background pp to 0 and bootstrap the appropriate number of pp upgrades.

 

[SeeleyOne]

I wonder if an eval script can be made to have the Power Points as shown on the Arcane Tab and over the powers on a printed sheet to have it show two values, much like how Toughness can show the (armor). So it could be PPE / ISP or whatever.

 

[TCArknight]

Definitely some good thoughts here.

I have a feeling it's going to take a combination of several to get it working right. One of the biggest issues I see is in selecting the powers. There are some powers that are just Arcane, some that are just Psionic, and some that are both. If I can get the ISP /PPE working like I want, I should be able to figure that out then...

 

[SeeleyOne]

This is why I was recommending a New Power that has you get a new power and then marks it with the type afterwards.

1) Add New Magic Power or New Psionic Power Edge
2) Go to Arcane tab and add a power
3) Go to Edge tab and select that power.

This is probably the simplest way that I can think of to do this.

There are two options for 4)

4a): Have the new power edge print and just say "Power(psionic)(powername)" or "Power(magic)(powername)".

4b): Do not have the new power edge print. Instead, have it hold an eval script that will add "Psi" or "Mag" to the name of the power. You could have it append "both" if they both chose that power. I would recommend doing this in a mechanic that only runs when the character has that arcane background. The script in the mechanic (which does not need a source, but should be unique) will be something like this:

Final 5010

~ Turn on only if a mystic whatever it is but I am too lazy to look it up
if (hero.tagis[Edge.edgSRMystic] = 1) then
   var powerName as string
   var powerType as string
   var bothOfThem as number

   ~ Iterate through the known Powers.
   foreach pick in hero from Power
      powerName = eachpick.field[name].text
      powerType = ""
      bothOfThem = 0


      ~ Loop through the New Power Edges
      foreach pick in hero from Edge
         if (eachpick.tagis[Edge.edgSRNPMag] <> 0) then
            if (compare(powerName, eachpick.field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[name].text) = 0) then
               powerType = "Mag"
               bothOfThem += 1
            endif
         endif

         if (eachpick.tagis[Edge.edgSRNPPsi] <> 0) then
            if (compare(powerName, eachpick.field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[name].text) = 0) then
               powerType = "Psi"
               bothOfThem += 1
            endif
         endif
      nexteach

       if(bothOfThem) = 2 then
          powerType = "Both"
       endif

       ~ Change the Power Name to show the type
       eachpick.field[livename].text = eachpick.field[name].text & "( " & powerType & ")"
   nexteach
endif

 

[Basara549]

For those not familiar with Rifts.

1. There are Psionic classes in the original Palladium system, and there are Magic-user classes.
2. The Mystic is an oddball because it's a Magic-user class that is also a high-end psi. Both power pools are completely different in calculation, and have completely different choices in that system. It's also odd in that, instead of being a scholarly pursuit, the class/framework is a calling/innate state of being. You don't LEARN to be a Mystic. You pursue a lifestyle of self-exploration, and MAY wake up to find yourself a mystic, if not actually born into the role.
3. In the SW version (hereafter referred to as Savage Rifts, or SR), Psis have acquired some of the abilities that were previously only magic-based (for instance, access to teleportation based abilities). So, there is more crossover in SR, but the pools and abilities will remain separate.

4. Establishing the ability to have both for things other than Mystics IS VITALLY IMPORTANT for Savage Rifts.
a. The main reason is that MANY of the NPC/Monster races of the setting have both, at even higher levels than the Mystic, and will get converted either officially or by players.
b. the SECOND, and probably more important for a character builder viewpoint, is that fully 25% of the Human populace HAS PSIONICS of some sort (and the non-humans range from non-psi, to human levels, to being fully psionic races), and this means that if converted over from an existing Palladium character, that player will almost certainly insist that their psi powers come with them - and since 25% of all humans are psis, that means that a LOT of the standard caster types will have some sort of minor psi pool that stands separate from their arcane Iconic Framework's pool.

I don't know if Pinnacle's addressed this in the books (I've not read through my package yet, and not really looked at the material since the original rough versions of the PDFs were released), but if players are familiar with the original setting, the SR game master may find it tough going if they try to deny the original version's minor psi chances, or take them away in conversion of existing characters from one system to another.

 

[salcor]

For Savage Rifts the dual Arcane Background is not only vital to the Mystic, but the Dragon Iconic Framework as well.

Salcor