Super-Speed/Time Control Array

[roguescribner]

I know someone over at the ATT mentioned he told someone over here about the Super-Speed array miscalculating. I just wanted to make sure that Time Control was checked as well (since it's based upon Super-Speed).

An array built from either power should grant 2pp/rank (like the Array structure from UP). Currently, it calculates alternate powers like from the Core book, factoring in the base power's parent cost for AP cost.

I also can't believe no one has ever brought this up before! Either no one is building too many speedsters/time controllers or they're enjoying the extra points.

 

[Colen]

Time Control works the same as Super-Speed - you have to add an alternate power, then add the "Special Alternate Power" power feat for free and select it. Then the power is limited to 2pp / rank. If you don't do this, you pay the standard 1 point for a normal alternate power, which means you effectively ignore the free super-speed power feat.

I just checked, and now that I fixed Super-Speed, Time Control is fixed as well (for things like activating multiple alternate powers at once). So this should be resolved in the next update.

 

[roguescribner]

Right, it's not the Special Alternate Power that's in contention. That's a freebie that works as a third linked power with Speed and Quickness at no more than 2pp/rank. According to UP, the alternate powers should also be restricted to 2pp/rank, but they currently are not. They provide a pool of points up to the cost of the parent power (5pp/rank or more for Time Control).

Essentially, it should work as an Array with Super-Speed as the base power and a third power of the player's choosing added for free. Even though Super-Speed is 5pp/rank, everything else should be restricted to 2pp/rank.

I guess the Core book isn't clear on this issue (since arrays in Core used parent cost for the array pool), but UP explicitly states that the array for Super-Speed provides 2pp/rank. So it'd have to be changed if UP is being utilized.

 

[Colen]

There are two ways to buy alternate powers for Super-Speed. One is to simply buy them as a normal alternate power, in which case you can buy them as normal. These alternate powers can't be used at the same time as the base Super-Speed power, just like regular alternate powers.

The other way is to tag the alternate powers as the "special alternate power". For super-speed & time control, this limits the alternate power to a maximum of 2pp/rank, but allows it to be used at the same time as Super-Speed. Effectively, tagging something as a special alternate power makes it the third linked power that can be used at the same time as Quickness and Speed. It's not really an alternate power, at that point.

Does that make sense?

 

[roguescribner]

I don't think I'm making myself clear, so I'll quote Ultimate Power.

Super-Speed

You have Quickness and Speed effects equal to your power rank and a +4 bonus to initiative checks (essentially one rank of Improved Initiative) per power rank. You also have a Super-Speed Array of effects you can do (2 points per rank in the Array). Choose one of the following Alternate Powers, acquiring the others normally (for 1 point per Alternate Power feat).

Time Control

In addition to the various Alternate Power feats given for Super-Speed, the following are some suitable Alternate Powers for a Time Control Array. They’re based on the built-in Array of the power (2 points per rank).

Irrespective of the free alternate power Super-Speed and (by extension) Time Control give you, the array is still capped at 2pp/rank. It's just that they are treated as alternate powers and not a linked power like the Special Alternate Power is. But they share the same point cap. Currently, Super-Speed alternate powers are capped at 5pp/rank and Time Control alternate powers are capped at 7pp/rank. If you read the descriptions of some of the alternate powers for Super-Speed and Time Control, they mention X power (with X extra and/or X flaw) at your power rank or a fraction of your power rank. Building the alternate powers in Hero Lab per the description from the book leaves plenty of extra power points to spend, which doesn't quite add up. It should only be 2pp/rank.

Now whether this restriction applies if you're using Core rules only I'm not sure, since the 2pp/rank Array rules weren't introduced until UP.

 

[roguescribner]

And just to break it down further:

If using Ultimate Power, rank 10 Super-Speed should provide 20pp to build an alternate power, not 50pp; rank 10 Time Control should provide 20pp to build an alternate power, not 70pp.

That applies to the free power you build or any other alternates.

If using Core rules, that's up for debate.

 

[Duggan]

Hmm... I know that adding Super-Speed X adds the powers of Quickness X and Speed X. Would it be feasible to just add another power to that, Super-Speed Array X, from which we can do the APs? One of the base problems we have here is that you can AP off of your Super-Speed Array and you can AP off of Super-Speed itself, and we need an easy way to distinguish them if you do one or both.

For example:
Super-Speed 4 [20 pp]
--Super-Speed Array 4
--- BP: Strike 7 (PF: Mighty)
--- AP: Burrowing 8
AP: Insubstantial 4 [1 pp]

The only problem I can think of is that I think the "encapsulated powers" don't seem to allow stepping into them to add further extras/APs. *wry grin* As usual, nowhere near my copy to actually check if this is the case.

Edit: And, now that I've had a chance to test the implementation in 3.6, it all works. The special APs are capped at 2*X and the AP of the entire power is capped at 5*X. Well done. ^_^ Not that I should expect any less of you guys.

 

[Colen]

roguescribner and I seem to be talking past each other. Rogue, you quote in your message:

You also have a Super-Speed Array of effects you can do (2 points per rank in the Array).

In Hero Lab, you can add one of these effects by adding an alternate power and "flagging it as the special alternate power". That limits it to 2 points per rank, which means you can use it at the same time as the other Super-Speed effects.

Hmm... are you asking for a way to add multiple effects, for +1PP each? For example, you can use Super-Speed at the same time as effects X, Y or Z, each of which was bought with 2 power points per rank, for an extra 2 points on top of the base Super-Speed cost?

 

[roguescribner]

We do seem to be talking past each other.

Broken down, Super-Speed is Speed (1pp/rank) + Quickness (1pp/rank) + Improved Initiative (1pp/rank) + Array (2pp/rank). That totals up to 5pp/rank.

In Hero Lab, if you add an alternate power to Super-Speed, it follows the parent cost of the power (5pp/rank) not the Array cost (2pp/rank). Again, the Core rulebook is a little fuzzy on the issue, but it seems explicit to me that UP says all powers should be no more than 2pp/rank. Yes, you may purchase a Special Alternate Power for free that is also limited to 2pp/rank, but all other powers are similarly limited, they just cost 1pp for the alternate power feat.

From the Core book:

You have Quickness (see page 96) and Speed (see page 100) equal to
your power rank and a +4 bonus to initiative checks per power rank. You
also gain one of the power feats below at your power rank (choose one
when you acquire Super-Speed). You can acquire the others as standard
power feats.

Emphasis mine. It goes on to list suitable alternate powers such as Air Control, Burrowing, Deflect (slow/fast projectiles), Strike, Stun, and Suffocate. All of those powers are 1pp - 2pp/rank which leads me to believe even in Core alternate powers should be limited to 2pp/rank.

But like I said, UP is more explicit:

Effect: Array, Quickness, Speed

You have Quickness and Speed effects equal to your power rank and
a +4 bonus to initiative checks (essentially one rank of Improved Initiative) per power rank. You also have a Super-Speed Array of effects you can do (2 points per rank in the Array). Choose one of the following Alternate Powers, acquiring the others normally (for 1 point per Alternate Power feat).

Recommended alternate powers are:

Air Control (2pp/rank) at Super-Speed power rank.
Bullet (basically Blast, 2pp/rank) at Super-Speed power rank.
Deflect (fast/slow projectiles) (2pp/rank) at Super-Speed power rank.
Rapid Fire (blast with autofire, 3pp/rank) at 2/3 Super-Speed power rank.
Sonic Boom (3pp/rank) at 2/3 Super-Speed power rank.

The list goes on, but not one power costs more than 2pp/rank without having to reduce the ranks of the power below Super-Speed. That to me means that ANY power you choose to add to the Super-Speed array is max cost 2pp/rank, whether it's the free special alternate power or the standard ones.

Super-Speed is special in that it is a container that also has an array. So the Super-Speed effects (speed, quickness, improved initiative, + 1 free alt power) are all usable apart from the other alternate powers in the array. A Speedster will always be able to move and attack or move and throw up protection without having to worry about switching the array only once per round. The container is not the array, it provides an array. Therefore, alternate powers should not follow parent cost. If I have Super-Speed 10, I should not be able to purchase a 50pp alternate power, only a 20pp alternate power. The array is separate from (but linked to) the Super-Speed container.

Make sense?

If I'm still not making myself clear, then check out this link, this link, and this link in the Official Rules Questions at the Atomic Think Tank. They show that Super-Speed is a container of effects linked to (or wrapped around) an array and that array is limited to 2pp/rank.

The only way someone should have a 50pp alternate power for Super-Speed is if they bought Super-Speed 25 (not Super-Speed 10).

 

[Duggan]

Or if the Super-Speed power itself were APed, meaning that you don't have access to its benefits. To allow for both cases, they have the regular AP if you want to AP all of Super-Speed, as seen in my Insubstantial example upthread, or the "Special AP" which is limited to just the 2*Rank points. I've tried both and they both work, even in concert on the same power.

Are you not getting this behavior on your copy of the software? Or are you objecting to having to set up the Super-Speed APs differently than APs on other powers?

 

[Colen]

Rogue, I think you're reading too much into the rules. Yes, Super-Speed gives you the option to use these special 2pp/rank alternate powers at the same time as Quickness & Speed, but you can still choose a totally different power as a "regular" alternate power, couldn't you?

 

[roguescribner]

That's just it: the regular alternate power should also be 2pp/rank. Everything I've been reading on the ATT forum supports that. Until recently, I never really built a speedster so it wasn't something I was aware of, but it really seems to be the general consensus over there that any alt powers for Super-Speed should be limited to 2pp/rank.

Super-Speed is the umbrella under which the array lies. Any powers placed into that array should not follow the parent cost of Super-Speed because it's not technically part of the array. Any alternate powers associated with Super-Speed should only concern themselves with the power's rank, not its cost.

Think about it this way: the Special Alternate Power super-speed provides in really the base effect/primary power for the super-speed array. Since it is limited to 2pp/rank of super-speed, so should any other alternate powers placed in the same array.

 

[roguescribner]

Or if the Super-Speed power itself were APed, meaning that you don't have access to its benefits. To allow for both cases, they have the regular AP if you want to AP all of Super-Speed, as seen in my Insubstantial example upthread, or the "Special AP" which is limited to just the 2*Rank points. I've tried both and they both work, even in concert on the same power.

Are you not getting this behavior on your copy of the software? Or are you objecting to having to set up the Super-Speed APs differently than APs on other powers?

I'm not sure what you posted is legal.

From what I gather, it should be:

Super-Speed

Speed + Quickness + Improve Initiative + [Special Alternate Power]

That's a container of effects. Steve Kenson has even said that Super-Speed is a container that contains an array, not an array itself.

Now, from the cost of the Special Alternate Power, you can build an array of standard alternate powers. You can only use either the SAP or any of the other alts once per round per the rules. But Speed+Quickness+Improved Initiative is always available apart from the array.

Again, the Core rules do not make this explicit, but UP certainly does.

Super-Speed is the box that wraps around its associated array of alternate powers. Just like using the Array structure from UP, you get one "free" power at 2pp/rank and then any alts cost 1pp and can cost no more than 2pp/rank. You do not gain multiple special alternate powers for super-speed and you can't have two arrays under the same umbrella.

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

I'm not sure what you posted is legal.

From what I gather, it should be:

Super-Speed

Speed + Quickness + Improve Initiative + [Special Alternate Power]

That's a container of effects. Steve Kenson has even said that Super-Speed is a container that contains an array, not an array itself.

Now, from the cost of the Special Alternate Power, you can build an array of standard alternate powers. You can only use either the SAP or any of the other alts once per round per the rules. But Speed+Quickness+Improved Initiative is always available apart from the array.

Again, the Core rules do not make this explicit, but UP certainly does.

Super-Speed is the box that wraps around its associated array of alternate powers. Just like using the Array structure from UP, you get one "free" power at 2pp/rank and then any alts cost 1pp and can cost no more than 2pp/rank. You do not gain multiple special alternate powers for super-speed and you can't have two arrays under the same umbrella.

For what it's worth, I lend my support to roguescribner's interpretation of things. Especially that "...is the box that wraps around..." metaphor and his "Just like using the Array structure from UP" since the book lists the "effect" of Super-Speed as *gasp* an Array. A Power in UP that has Array as an effect is just an Array with a different label....an identifier of what "type" of Array it is really more than a bona-fide, stand-alone Power.

Golly I hope they clear that up in M&M 3rd Edition.

Okay, getting off of my soapbox now.

 

[Duggan]

{nods} So Super-Speed is a Container that has an array in it. If you have an AP off of the array (here, a Special Array), it's 2PP per rank total and you can use it while using the other effects. If you AP off of the Container (here the "regular" AP), you have 5 pp per rank and you can't use the Speed, Quickness, and Improved Initiative.

As regards the particular AP combination maybe not being legal, would it be legal if you took it the other way?

Insubstantial 4
..AP: Super-Speed 4 (with all of its effects and the array)

Even were Super-Speed not a Container, one is allowed a collection of effects in an array slot. And when it is... well, one of the other major examples of a Container, the Alternate Form, lets you AP off of it.

^_^ Honestly, I keep feeling like we're violently agreeing here that the super-speed array is 2 pp/rank etc, but disagreeing on whether the Container can be APed.

 

[roguescribner]

Wouldn't you be effectively nesting an array that way? You'd have a Super-Speed array list of alts and then another list of alts for the container. That seems like double-dipping to me.

Super-Speed could be part of an array, but then it shouldn't also provide an array as well.

Is this an ORQ? Too bad they don't do those anymore. Heh.

 

[roguescribner]

Also, as Nigel points out, UP doesn't list the effect of Super-Speed as Container and Array, but rather an Array with Speed and Quickness added to it as a bonus. Super-Speed is supposed to provide the whole package for a Speedster: super-speed and also some speed-based attacks/effects. That's not to say you can't have another array outside of the power, but if you AP off of Super-Speed, it should follow the 2pp/rank array rules, not follow the parent-cost.

If Super-Speed were part of an array and it also provided its own array of alts, that seems like a huge and unintended cost break. I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

 

[Duggan]

So the disagreement is basically on whether Super-Speed should be treated as a container.

As for nested APs, Steve Kenson's weighed in saying that it's legal, but a GM should look it over to make sure the player isn't trying to pull something over on them.

Personally, I used it in a Weapons Summoning array on one of my characters to have one weapon be a grenade launcher with the various grenades be APs. It meant that the nested power only had 16 pp of powers instead of the 20 for most of the slots, but it also meant I didn't have to spend an addition pp for each grenade type.

Ultimately, I feel that the behavior of Super-Speed treats itself as an Container which holds an array. For example the ability to apply Affects Others to the power as a whole. Moreover, in the ORQ forum, he's stated that Super-Speed is a Container.

 

[roguescribner]

Okay, deep breath.

So the intended action in Hero Lab for anyone wishing to utilize Super-Speed's array effect is to purchase multiple Special Alternate Power feats, correct? But if you instead wished to turn Super-Speed into the base power of an array (meaning if you use an alternate power, you no longer have access to any Super-Speed effects), just click the alternate power button you use in every other power screen, is that right?

If that's the intent, then fine, I guess I'll have to remember to do that in the future if I ever build a speedster again. But I don't think that's really clear (reading the books and then using that to build in Hero Lab) and I wager there are a lot of people just using the standard AP button thinking they're utilizing the Super-Speed array effect.

Maybe some text can be added to Super-Speed's/Time Control's description in Hero Lab to make clear the route you're supposed to take.

 

[Shadowchaser]

The super-speed power is not only 'Broken' in here (5pp array is patently wrong, it's a 2pp per rank array), the design should be a container.

5pp Per Rank (5pp in each rank of the container)
2pp Array (Super-Speed Stunts) First stunt is free (essentially the base power of the array)
1pp Speed
1pp Quickness
1pp Improved Initiative feat

The reason this HAS to be the way it is built is because you don't lose the Speed, the Quickness, OR the Improved Initiative when you use the power stunts. So you're not AP'ing off the whole container, you're only AP'ing off the 2pp array.

I have long been building my own Speed containers to get around this mistake, and to 'fine tune' the power so I could cut down on the points spent on Improved Initiative. Like any container, it should allow you to spend more or less on any single element of the container as long as you've spent 5pp (or less) per rank in the container as a whole. The super-speed power as it is built in the Ultimate Power book is a good 'Example' of the power, and shows how they built the one in the core rulebook, but it is not the only way Super-Speed can be handled.

Further, would it be possible to 'jailbreak' the Super-speed Running Punch so it could be used with any movement power? This would be very helpful, and seems more in the spirit of the rules than having to re-build it from scratch just because I chose to be a speedy flier instead of a runner. Also, having the 'Rapid Attack' power feat (a 2pp per rank power stunt off the array based on +0 Strike with +1 Area Effect and +1 Selective, lets you use your Strength on anyone within the Area Effect range) available for home-brew arrays or APs would mean a lot less work for custom power builds.


Thanks again, Colen!