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Space Wolves and Sgt Chronus

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muzzyman1981

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Why don't the Space Wolves have Sgt Chronus as a vehicle option?

He is a vehicle upgrade and since Space Wolves take most of our vehicles and upgrade from the Space Marine Codex we should therefore be able to choose him as an option...obviously it would be a "count as" situation but all the same...
 
I am not sure about this. Chronos is a named character for codex SM army. He doesn't appear is the SW Codex, so I dont think he or the other Special characters should be available for SW armies. SW armies have their own special characters.
 
However he isn't a Special Character, he is a vehicle upgrade. If he was an Elite unit or HQ unit I would agree but he is neither....he is a vehicle upgrade. Space Wolves must and can take any vehicle upgrade from the SM Codex except for the Venerable Dreadnought and the Leman Russ Exterminator.

You could make him an Iron Priest upgrade to the armor choices in a Space Wolf army, that is what Chronus is equal to.
 
Do you see Chronus listed in any of the vehicle entries as an upgrade? Chronus is NOT a vehicle upgrade. He is a unit with a separate army list entry that must be assigned to a tank in the army.

As to whether or not he is a 'special character', please read the rules for special characters on page 49 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook and you will see that he most definitely fits the description given. What position he takes on the Force Organization chart is inconsequential.
 
His stat box is setup the same as the Servitors for a Teachmarine and for Sgt Telion for the Scout Sgt...they are all upgrades for their respective units. The reason it doesn't say that he is an upgrade in the armor's upgrade list is because in his profile his box is shaded just like the other stat'd upgrade units.

It is that shaded box that covers his profile that signifies he is an upgrade, otherwise why have the shaded box? He is a general upgrade for armor. How else would you class his profile and therefore the rest of the unit profiles set up the same as his? You might say Sgt Chronus and Sgt Telion are special characters but that wouldn't explain why servitor's (which are definately not special characters) profiles are shown the same way as the others.

The biggest reason I would say that he is an upgrade is that under no circumstances can you take those units that have the grey boxes seperately from the units they are assigned to. You cannot take Sgt Telion on his own or give him to a Tac Squad, you can't give servitors to a Company Captain....they must be given to their assigned units, and since they are NOT in the Unit Composition section of the profiles AND they may be given optionally they must be considered as upgrades to those units.

I know the reluctance of not giving them, mainly because he is named and has Ultramarine markings all over his armor but the truth is you can use Sgt Telion and Sgt Chronus is other Chapters just fine as "counted as". If you use the reasoning above then he would be considered an upgrade to Space Marine armor, Space Wolves use the Space Marine Codex for their armor choices, with two exceptions, Space Wolves must therefore use the upgrades from the Space Marine Codex....ergo Space Wolves can use Sgt Chronus (they cannot use Sgt Telion as he is an upgrade for a SCOUT SGT which Space Wolves don't have and we can't use servitors because our Iron Priests have Thralls, the same thing).

Lastly, in the Space Marine Codex, it states that armies that follow the Codex Astartes may take special characters from the Space Marine Codex to be "counted as". By the two posts given, Sgt Chronus is a special character. Admittedly the Space Wolves place very little value in the Codex Astartes they do however technically follow it and therefore can take special characters. The matter that we have special characters in our Codex is beside the point. If you follow the reasoning that we already have our own SCs then no other Chapter may any other's SCs.

In conclusion, this game is supposed to be fun, I would like to use AB to make the game fun but if I have to explain at every game that the reason why my 1850pt army is short by 70pts and the reason being is that AB wouldn't let me put Sgt Chronus in the list would take some of the fun out of the game. Sgt Chronus could easily be "Counted as" an Iron Priest upgrade in the Space Wolf section.
 
It is that shaded box that covers his profile that signifies he is an upgrade, otherwise why have the shaded box?
Click to expand...
He's still not an upgrade. Nothing in the codex says that he's an upgrade. It's nothing more than an assumption on your part that he's an upgrade. Where does the codex say that a shaded box means he's an upgrade. It does not. Maybe they used the shaded box because they thought it looked pretty, but nothing supports your claims. If he were an upgrade, he'd be listed with the other upgrades.

The biggest reason I would say that he is an upgrade is that under no circumstances can you take those units that have the grey boxes seperately from the units they are assigned to.
Click to expand...
And that still does not make them upgrades. It's not the first time that you've been required to field one unit to unlock another, or would you say that an Imperial Assassin is an upgrade for an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord?

I know the reluctance of not giving them, mainly because he is named and has Ultramarine markings all over his armor but the truth is you can use Sgt Telion and Sgt Chronus is other Chapters just fine as "counted as".
Click to expand...
Other Chapters that use Codex Space Marines ONLY. Space Wolves do not use Codex Space Marines only. They take what units their codex says that they can and no more.

Lastly, in the Space Marine Codex, it states that armies that follow the Codex Astartes may take special characters from the Space Marine Codex to be "counted as".
Click to expand...
And Codex Space Wolves have a strict list of what units may be taken and Chronus nor any of the other special characters are listed.

In conclusion, this game is supposed to be fun...
Click to expand...
And a game has RULES to9 ensure that both players have fun, not just one at the expense of the other. Anyway, your mistaking the datafiles as the game. So go have fun playing the game, but don't expect the datafiles to allow you to create an illegal army.
 
I have given my reasonings behind why Space Wolves believe he is an upgrade. I don't wish to try and "cheese" my army. I'm sure I will have fun without him, but at the same time I wish to have all the options I can when I make my lists.

Yes, my views are an interpretation of the rules and profiles, but I believe them to be correct as do many of my Wolf-brothers and many others that do not play Space Wolves.

One last point, why can't the Space Wolves have what amounts the same character? It's been said we have our own special characters. The Ultramarines had their own special characters before this new Codex but they were given more with the new Codex...why can't the rest of the Space Marine Chapters receive the same? You will say that other Chapters that use ONLY the SM Codex can but those that have a seperate Codex are stuck with what they have within the pages. Why must that be? Space Wolves only have 3 special characters. Why can't we have Sgt Chronus be a basic Iron Priest with the same profile? In the Space Marine Codex it says that other Chapters have unique characters that are the "same" as the special characters in the Space Marine Codex....it would stand to reason that those who use other Codexes would have equals as well.

*EDIT*
The Army Builder program has Sgt Chronus as an upgrade as seen in the following picture:
Proof.jpg

That came from the sm5EDat.dat file.
 
He's done as an upgrade in Army Builder as a matter of functionality, not that he is actually a vehicle upgrade.

He is not available to the Space Wolves' army because he is not a vehicle upgrade. He is a unit selected by someone using Codex: Space Marines. That he is then assigned to a vehicle is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion.

Space Wolves use wargear from Codex: Space Marines. They do not use units from Codex: Space Marines except where directly noted in Codex: Space Wolves.
 
And again, you're reasoning is flawed. He's not an upgrade. The vehicle upgrades are listed in the vehicle's army list entry under the heading "Options". He's not there, hence he's not an upgrade. He's a separate unit with his own requirements. Your entire argument is that he's an upgrade because you say so, yet you can't explain why he's not listed with the other upgrades.

And trying to claim he is just because the datafile authors chose to use an exisiting category to insure that he validates properly just goes to show how desparate you are. How he's programmed in the datafiles is inconsequential. He's not an upgrade, and he can't be taken by an army in a different codex unless that codex or it's FAQ says so.
 
Im sorry, but you need to open the codex before you call Muzzy a liar. You might even read the entry for commander chronus on pg 89 of Codex SM.

"Tank Commander: Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a Space Marine tank (see the army list). Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

First paragraph below his stats under the special rules column. He IS an upgrade, by GW's own words so please dont pull some BS about other people trying to make illegal lists or not following the rules unless you can back it up.

Since Space Wolves can use any of the vehicle upgrades from C:SM on any units they take from C:SM *Ie all but the vendread and leman russ* they obviously must be able to take the upgrade- Commander Chronus. That he is in effect a special character or a unique choice or what have you is irrelelvant. There is nothing in either codex that says you cant take something as a space wolf because its named or unique, it simply lists the guidelines of what CAN be taken, wich chronus fits.

Enjoy gentlemen.
 
So? He's an upgrade, but not a VEHICLE upgrade. So once again, where does it say that he can be taken in anything other than a Space Marine army? Where does it say that Space Wolves can get any 'upgrade' in any codex that they want. You and him are making too much of a single word found in his fluff. He is NOT a vehicle upgrade, get over it.
 
It doesnt say anything about any codex they want, however if you will refer to the Space wolf FAQ, youll note they take their vehicles and upgrades for tanks from Codex Space marine. He is an upgrade for a tank, a tank is a vehicle. Therefore he is a vehicle upgrade.... very simple.
 
@ Ghaz - you just admitted he is an UPGRADE....well unless I am mistaken he can only be taken for a TANK....therefore, correct me if I'm wrong, that makes him a VEHICLE UPGRADE. It says it the Space Wolf Codex that we take upgrades for those vehicles we take from the Space Marine Codex....the only exceptions are the Leman Russ Exterminator (which doesn't occur in the Space Marine Codex) and the Venerable Dreadnought (which we have our own rules and upgrade options).

@ GM - Thanks for the backup, I forgot about that part...don't even remember where I saw it.
 
Hey muzz, you know Id be the first to say SW couldnt.... but this ones pretty black and white, and i have a feeling that Ghaz is just being dense on purpose. His tone start out as rather combative and got worse. Cervidol and jlong seem a bit more even keeled on this situation, and Id like to hear back from them after theyve reread the appropriate entries.
 
I understand GM, and I agree....if I could get proof in print that Chronus is specifically NOT a upgrade then I would be the first to admit that we couldn't take him as I do my best not to go the "cheese" way, but as you pointed out it is pretty clear that he is an upgrade.

*EDIT* Well apparently the trouble comes from the fact our FAQ says we take the options from the Space Marine Codex for vehicles but Chronus is an upgrade....option and upgrade are two seperate things according to Jlong which therefore precludes us from taking him for the vehicles. I have a whole other comment for this that I thought of last night after I talked to Jlong (which brings to light the options for vehicles are by definition upgrades, which our FAQ makes no mention of upgrades).

Also was mentioned was that he is a special character (although the entry on pg 127 says other Space Marine Chapters can use the "model and rules for a named character to represent a might hero of a different Chapter" - Space Marine Codex).
 
Hmph.
As a die hard Space Wolf player from second edition onwards, I want to punch both of you in the snout for even thinking of such an aberration. No matter though, this will all be settled soon enough when we finally get our own stand-alone codex back. In the mean time, however, I will thoroughly disabuse anyone of this "idea" should I find them contemplating it within earshot.
 
Im sorry that your insulted that we could take anything from C:SM Mr_Rose, however thats how its been since third edition started. If youd like to explain WHY this cant be done Id love to hear it.... so far no one has brought forth a valid argument about this in a rules context.

No, saying "I dont like it" and failing to argue the scemantics does not count as a valid argument.
 
We aren't saying we want Chronus we are saying we want a counted as....an Iron Priest for example with Chronus' profile.

So far all the arguments against have been "You say it works that way, but I say it doesn't." If someone were to produce something that countermands what we have brought forward we would be the first to stand down but so far what we have found points to Space Wolves getting to use the profile and model.
 
Muzzy, thats saying you want chronus. I dont care one way or the other as I dont use special characters, but Id like the most used army creation method out there to accurately reflect the rules.... so Im not giving this up until I can be convinced the rules dont support it.
 
The simple reason you can't take him is because he's not on any of the lists of units that are taken directly from Codex Space Marines in Codex Space Wolves, nor is he listed as an option in any of the units that are listed.
You might have a better argument with Telion but, equally, the Scout Squad entry doesn't list him as an option either.

Grey_Mage; I don't really understand how it has escaped your notice before, but GW's rules (and those of most any game) are written in the form of a list of things you can do, with a baseline of not being able to do anything. That is, the default answer is "no" unless you can find somewhere where it says "yes" and no-where does it say yes to the question asked.

And Muzzy, it definitely also doesn't say "you can take someone just like Chronus but dressed differently so that you can tell yourself you aren't stretching the rules."

Next you'll be wanting Land Raider Redeemers. :roll:
 
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