Realm Works Player Edition Update

[pyremius]

I think the point of a GM paying for player copies is that the GM is trying to promote the tool as the place for his players to view the contents, and to provide journals and such. I know my group has people who won't pay for it on their own as they don't think pay tools like RW are "worth it". If I want them to use it, I provide licenses as it's my choice to use the tool. Same goes for Hero Lab, I provide time on our laptops and the iPad for them to use to update their characters every level. Only one of my players (two if you count my husband) has Hero Lab.

The GM uses Realm Works to organize all of their notes: what the players have learned, who they've met, how all the pieces of your world connect together . . . and more importantly, what they _haven't_ learned yet (to steal Rob's example from Friday: the players know their opponent is a Rogue, but they don't know until mid-battle that he's also been hiding the fact that he has a few levels of Sorcerer - surely Fire Breath won't make the encounter harder for the, will it? ).

If the players don't want to buy the Player View, let them live without it - that application is for their convenience, not yours. They can hand-draw the maps as they explore, document the personality differences between Fred the Cleric and Greg the Cleric, keep track of who provided which rumors (and how often their rumors are correct), etc.

If the players expect me to spend my money for their convenience (and I'll include Hero Lab), my first question is: what benefit does this provide me compared to how else I could be spending my money? Instead of buying Advanced Class Guide so one of the players can use a couple spells, would I gain more use from another Bestiary, or one of the setting books with more details about the part of the world the players are exploring? When the players could be hand-writing their encounter notes, is it worth $30 of my money for their notes to be more comprehensive, when I could use it for an expansion to the map-making software I use instead?

 

[silee]

I have no interest in promoting this player version to my players since it is taking resources/manpower away from the free web-based player access I expected with the product a year ago.

 

[mirtos]

I have no interest in promoting this player version to my players since it is taking resources/manpower away from the free web-based player access I expected with the product a year ago.

Im not sure where you get that idea. I think they have always been honest that the web version would be later, and i don't see how its taking resources away from the web version.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

My paying for RW was an attempt to bring some order to my GM notes, not really as an actual at-the-table gaming tool. If my players can have free web access to my notes, then I'll probably use that ability, but we likely won't be paying for the player version, especially given the timeframe of product rollout and feature completeness.

It's coming up on a year since I started waiting for the base product (remember the "What does 'Fall 2013' mean exactly?" threads?) and I'm still limited by promised features that are not implemented. If we purchase the player version it will be after I'm confident that the product is indeed complete enough to execute everything that I want to do with it, not just that these features are "scheduled".

Could not have said it any better Maxsupernova....RW was for my convenience, I personally will not pitch the players version until it does Everything promised. It's equal to purchasing a house and the builder telling you it's ready to move in except for the finishing touches,,,, carpet, AC, cabinets all hung. Etc.

Can you live in it? Sure, but many might place a high value on getting the "finishes" the mortgage check has already paid for.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

Im not sure where you get that idea. I think they have always been honest that the web version would be later, and i don't see how its taking resources away from the web version.

Have to agree with mirtos, BUT I do agree that most of LW resources are dedicated to the player version at the expense of supporting the completion of missing features on the RW core, and hero lab (d20 specifically, and all others but pathfinder).

Those are the challenges of a small business.

 

[EightBitz]

Have to agree with mirtos, BUT I do agree that most of LW resources are dedicated to the player version at the expense of supporting the completion of missing features on the RW core, and hero lab (d20 specifically, and all others but pathfinder).

Those are the challenges of a small business.

Yes, because they can't do everything at once. If they were working on other things instead of the player version, people would say that they're working on those things at the expense of the player version.

As I understand it, they're prioritizing first by what they consider core functionality, and second by user response. And at the same time, they've improved communication with their customers.

 

[enrious]

Have to agree with mirtos, BUT I do agree that most of LW resources are dedicated to the player version at the expense of supporting the completion of missing features on the RW core, and hero lab (d20 specifically, and all others but pathfinder).

Those are the challenges of a small business.

They've said before that the Hero Lab team =/= the Realm Works team and vice versa, so work on RW isn't impacting HL.

 

[rob]

Now that we're back from GenCon (arrived home late last night), I'll attempt to address a few comments here...

* The Realm Works team is 100% distinct from the Hero Lab team. This applies to both product development and content adaptation.

* Web-based player access has been planned for AFTER Player Edition since the beginning of time. Well, since we first mapped out our plans for Realm Works multiple years ago. I believe we made this clear during the Kickstarter last year, and I know we've stated as much many times since then.

* I badly misjudged how long some major components of the product would take to implement, and we never foresaw some of the nasty complications we ran into over the past 18 months. Lots of details about these issues were shared in our Kickstarter updates and in a few updates here on the forums. That's the unfortunate reality of creating a product that's never been done before that is comprised of features that haven't been done before. If we were creating another word processor, it would be a much different situation.

* We lost our primary server-side developer just as we were shifting our focus to Player Edition, which amounted to another major delay, as we had to do extensive knowledge transfer and then have team members who were originally tasked with other features drop those to deal with Player Edition. That's not something you can't really plan for, and it's another reality of having a very small team. Losing one person can have significant repercussions.

The above information is intended solely for context. Are we way behind where we wanted to be? Heck, yeah. Are we doing our absolute best to put out a great product and get everything done that we've promised. Heck, yeah. Is the product solid and highly useful in its current state? The comments I see regularly here on the forums and elsewhere, plus the ENnie Award on Friday, indicate that it is.

I completely understand the frustration that some of you feel, as well as the desire to withhold further support until some missing capabilities are implemented. Please believe that we're just as frustrated as you are about the delays, and we're doing our best to get those missing capabilities into place as quickly as possible - but without compromising the long-term future of the product.

I think the biggest problem we face is that we've created a product that's truly transformative in potential and for which everybody wants more capabilities yesterday. We could throw features in faster that are hacked together and poorly conceived. But that's not our philosophy, and I think everyone would ultimately lose with that approach. As the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. We're building Rome, er, Realm Works, to last - as a foundation for the future. We need to construct each building block the right way to achieve that.

Player Edition encompasses a few of those building blocks. Once those are in place, we'll focus on the next building blocks after that.

I hope this post proves helpful to those of you who've been commenting in this thread!

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

They've said before that the Hero Lab team =/= the Realm Works team and vice versa, so work on RW isn't impacting HL.

Your statement is based on what?
Lets look at it in two parts.
1> What is the LW Team
2> Does RW Work Delay other parts of the LWD product line...

the team consisted of 2.5 developers – two full-time developers and myself, with my responsibilities split across lots of company duties beyond development. After the Kickstarter, we hired new developers, each with expertise in specific areas that would help us achieve our vision for Realm Works. They all joined us last April and we began the process of getting them up to speed on everything.

So the above Rob Quote implies there were 2.5 developers for LWD prior to the hiring of more (2-3) based on Kickstarter. Those developers would have to be LWD, not JUST RW....

Based on that one could assume that the 2.5 Developers were

• Rob
• Colen
• Mathis

The additional programmers may have been

• Aaron (though he was hired nearly 2yrs earlier via the Community Lawful G)
• Joe
• David P

What is unclear (and irrelevant to this) is who left in April '14....

A cursory look (using the Forum as a benchmark) the LW Team looks like this...

Name Positions / Titles
Rob.....................Senior Member, Lone Wolf Staff, President, Lead Developer
Liz.......................Senior Member, Lone Wolf Staff, Community Development Manager
Colen...................Senior Member, Lone Wolf Staff, Lead HL Developer
Aaron...................Lone Wolf Staff, Senior Member
Mathias................Senior Member, Lone Wolf Staff
Joe......................Member, Lone Wolf Staff, RW Developer
Ken C...................Director of Operations, Art Developer Director
David P.................Software Support, RW Developer


Community Support
ShadowChemosh....Volunteer Data File Contributor, Senior Member
RavenX................Volunteer Data File Contributor, Senior Member
Lawful_g .............Volunteer Data File Contributor, Senior Member (AKA Aaron)
Jlong05................Volunteer Data File Author, Senior Member
Duggan................Volunteer Data File Contributor, Senior Member
Sendric................Senior Member
Chiefweasel..........Senior Member
AndrewD2.............Senior Member
Bodrin..................Senior Member
Zarlor..................Senior Member
Silveras............... Senior Member
Nigel_Fogg............Senior Member
AEIOU................. Senior Member
MaxSuperNova...... Senior Member
Mirtos..................Senior Member
Kendall-DM...........Spy?

LWD have "specialists" on Herolab and Realmworks, but it is unlikely that they have the resources to have their developers set to only a single task. There is simply not enough of them to go around....
Further, if it were not for the efforts of the Community support (some but not all listed above) the Herolab side would certainly suffer more.

Delays incurred examples-
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=49415&highlight=lost+programmer
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=50332&highlight=delay
Android support NADA.. see http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=41216&highlight=delay&page=3

And lastly just for morbid interest ( yea Im a left brained engineer) below is a list of Primary Focus (based on Forum Response) for the above during their last 100 posts.

Rob-

• 89- Realm Works
• 11- Herolab

Liz

• 57- Realm Works
• 34- Hero Lab
• 7- Other
• 2- Web

Colen

• 24- HLPathfinder
• 22- WebSupport
• 36- HL Discussion
• 18- HL all other
• 2 - RW

Aaron87

• 87 HL Pathfinder
• 9 HL- Other
• 4 HL Discussion

Mathias

• 100 Herolab

Joe

• 100 Realm Works

So based on that, Colen, Aaron, and Mathis have their response focus on HL, but even Colen has conceded that the work is impacted by RW (see delays attached)

That leaves Rob, David, and Joe... I don't think they are doing the RW without the support of the rest of the LWD team.
NOTE, this does imply structure based on Forum response, which is a pretty poor benchmark, but the only common Benchmark readily to be found...

For example.. if David (RW Developer) is responding via Forum, I am unsure under what avatar, I simply added him via problem solving thru bug fixes, so I know he is integral to the team.

Based on Linkedin, LWD is a company that has between 11-50 people.. (I would wager to guess between 11-20) So the above list isn't missing many of the LWD team members
So, to conclude that there are separate stand alone "teams" is unlikely... More likely they have leads for each Software Branch, and the others support when / where they can...

 

[ruhar]

I'm guessing, Dark Lord Galen, that you were still typing when Rob posted.

Have any of you looked at the big picture outside of your little kingdom you're building on RW? LW is a very small company that invented the wheel when there was no wheel. No one has created a program like HL and particularly RW. I don't care if the staff at LW are working only on one program or split between the two, they have done and are doing a great job and I'm sure they will continue to do so in the future.

I understand your grumbling about promised features not added yet, I've done my fair share of grumbling too. But I'd rather have features working right before being added than to have to deal with a lot of bugs and crashes. There are a LOT of things that can be done in RW right now and I bet most of us have enough to keep us busy entering our information into RW without worrying about what we can't do yet. As Rob said, "Rome wasn't built in a day." I know our world's data won't be entered in a day.

Over the years we have all managed to keep track of our realms on everything from little scraps of paper to whatever program we make do with, surely we can continue along a few more weeks or a couple of months until our various desired features are completed.

Ok, I'm done with the soap box. You can carry on with the soap box.

 

[rob]

The above analysis of LWD's composition is - unfortunately - utterly wrong.

Only some of the people you have listed above are employees. And some employees don't ever post on the public forums - although they are often active on the Beta team forums. So this analysis is a classic example of "garbage in, garbage out".

The Realm Works development team consists of Rob (me), David, Richard, and Joe. Rob used to work on the Hero Lab team until I split off to spearhead Realm Works, and that's been my sole development focus for years now - although, as the company owner, I'm still heavily involved with Hero Lab on the strategic and business side of things. The content team consists of Jeremy and Chris. Note that many of those names don't appear on the list above. The team member who left in April is similarly not on the list above.

On the Hero Lab side, the development team is three strong. There are another three data file experts on the Hero Lab team.

The languages and environments used for Realm Works and Hero Lab are quite different (C#/.Net vs. C++), so there are no shared responsibilities between the development teams. The content for the two products is radically different, so there is again no overlap between the teams.

Beyond the above, we have Liz as Community Manager, a business manager who also helps out with the Realm Works content, an operations/finance person, and a dedicated support person.

That's a total of 15 employees, with ZERO overlap between the two product teams.

The assessment regarding community support being a major contributor to Hero Lab is very true for various game systems. We have a bunch of volunteers doing things that enhance the data files that we produce. We also utilize a number of part-time contractors to help with the data files that we do produce.

One of the core principals we've ALWAYS operated under is that we don't lie to our users. The analysis above implies otherwise, and I personally take offense at that. You are quite welcome to ask questions, and we're generally pretty open about answering them. But please do NOT assert things that are based heavily on conjecture as "likely" or "unlikely".

Thanks!

 

[mirtos]

Rob, as you mentioned, its probably just frustration. I doubt Dark Lord Galen meant offense (and if you see earlier posts, you can see he "sided" with me when i said that the player account wasnt taking away from the web access.

Web forums tend to cause calm debate to become not so calm at times (though i think people have done a good job).

On a matter of thanks, though, I doubt you saw this, but I am personally thankful for you (meaning LW, and since you are the owner, I think you deserve at least some credit) allowing a non-employee to work on fixing bugs related to the HeroLab d20 system. For those of you who dont use the HL d20, I'm not that person, but I am a user, and I (and I think most users of the HL d20) appreciate it.

Its something you wouldnt see many companies being willing to do. It shows a great willingness to care about its users.

So,

Thanks.

(and now - get back to work! )

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

The above analysis of LWD's composition is - unfortunately - utterly wrong.

Humm for being "utterly wrong" I managed to list more than 75% of the team by name.... seems the only thing I didn't clarify is the two softwares being in different languages and composition (as I have mentioned in other threads), so thanks for clearing that piece up.

Only some of the people you have listed above are employees. And some employees don't ever post on the public forums - although they are often active on the Beta team forums. So this analysis is a classic example of "garbage in, garbage out".

Funny how its "garbage in garbage out" when using the information you provide...... hummmm I didn't make up the titles nor the delegation of postings, all that information is readily available within this forum.

If you took the time to actually read the post in relation to thread, I have defended you Rob......

and never claimed that the list was inclusive nor and organizational chart, but as an explanation of your available resources to do the goals set infront of LWD. The list of people simply tries to define whom you had supporting the efforts. Any readily that chose to read the forum can find the same information accessible (see Current Posts under name).

The Realm Works development team consists of Rob (me), David, Richard, and Joe. Rob used to work on the Hero Lab team until I split off to spearhead Realm Works, and that's been my sole development focus for years now - although, as the company owner, I'm still heavily involved with Hero Lab on the strategic and business side of things.

seems I named 3 out of 4

The content team consists of Jeremy and Chris. Note that many of those names don't appear on the list above. The team member who left in April is similarly not on the list above.

List based (as noted) on forum response, was never to convey a company org chart. Just to reinforce the large quantity of work being done by few individuals.

On the Hero Lab side, the development team is three strong. There are another three data file experts on the Hero Lab team.

Pretty sure I've named 2 of these as well.....

The languages and environments used for Realm Works and Hero Lab are quite different (C#/.Net vs. C++), so there are no shared responsibilities between the development teams. The content for the two products is radically different, so there is again no overlap between the teams..

I generally concur as to the differences with the softwares ( made mention to many that seek a spreadsheet or word processor out of database), but there are comments through out that show team members from one group supporting the other and causing impact simply do to time constraints....

Beyond the above, we have Liz as Community Manager, a business manager who also helps out with the Realm Works content, an operations/finance person, and a dedicated support person.

That's a total of 15 employees, with ZERO overlap between the two product teams.

You yourself are an overlap Rob.... while you may not have the day to day duties you once had within HL, you do have "poetic license". Don't you?
And also noted that the company size was probably in the 11-20 range.

The assessment regarding community support being a major contributor to Hero Lab is very true for various game systems. We have a bunch of volunteers doing things that enhance the data files that we produce. We also utilize a number of part-time contractors to help with the data files that we do produce.

My "garbage"... pretty much said exactly that. Save mentioning that some of your contributors were part-time contractors. I felt it was not necessary to convey the original goal < SMALL COMPANY> to those expecting instant gratifications.

One of the core principals we've ALWAYS operated under is that we don't lie to our users. The analysis above implies otherwise, and I personally take offense at that. You are quite welcome to ask questions, and we're generally pretty open about answering them. But please do NOT assert things that are based heavily on conjecture as "likely" or "unlikely".

Thanks!

NOTE, this does imply structure based on Forum response, which is a pretty poor benchmark, but the only common Benchmark readily to be found...

1> Never implied all the people were employees nor where they were assigned , but were in support of your team.
2> Never implied you lied ANYWHERE in ANY of my 100 plus postings... Not sure at what point you took it to say such... I simply utilized the forum and based data on that (I referenced it as such) it didn't suggest anything other than a small group of people doing ALOT of multitasking.

Rob, as you mentioned, its probably just frustration. I doubt Dark Lord Galen meant offense

I didn't, and the afore mentioned post was not frustration, but in defending LWD accomplishments... 600 plus posts by six people on top of doing their REAL work...

Did I post earlier in the thread conveying I would not pass on suggestions to my players to purchase, yes, simply because it is not yet ready to support my players needs / play style based on missing items from the DM side.

I'm guessing, Dark Lord Galen, that you were still typing when Rob posted.

Seems so, and for defending LW no less .... No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

On a matter of thanks, though, I doubt you saw this, but I am personally thankful for you (meaning LW, and since you are the owner, I think you deserve at least some credit) allowing a non-employee to work on fixing bugs related to the HeroLab d20 system. For those of you who dont use the HL d20, I'm not that person, but I am a user, and I (and I think most users of the HL d20) appreciate it.

I too am a D20 user and convey this same appreciation.

 

[rob]

I read the post completely differently from how it was intended. I keyed primarily on the assignment of staff to teams that they have never contributed to in any way and the final assertion of...

"So, to conclude that there are separate stand alone "teams" is unlikely... More likely they have leads for each Software Branch, and the others support when / where they can..."

The big gotcha is that I didn't detect that your post was being written while my post was made. I don't look closely at timestamps and didn't circle back to see the response until an hour later. So I interpreted your post as a response to my mine instead of overlapping it. Based on that, I took the incorrect information as an intentional statement that contested my post, which was an honest mistake on my part.

Bottom line: Timing is everything. If you had hit submit two minutes earlier or I had done so three minutes later, I would have seen your post when I submitted mine and realized it was an overlap. I saw it an hour later, didn't check the timestamp, and drew a completely different interpretation from what you wrote. Sorry about that!

 

[rob]

One additional detail regarding the Hero Lab team...

Delays incurred by the Hero Lab team are completely unrelated to the situation with the Realm Works team. The Hero Lab team has lots of publishers to contend with for data files (and the resulting issues associated with that), plus their own technical hurdles they encounter as they work to enhance the product and bring it to new platforms like the iPad. Fortunately, their delays aren't nearly as egregious as ours have been on the Realm Works team.

 

[Madmaxneo]

After attending Gencon 2014 and asking this very question at the demo, I will report that it is possible to give someone a copy of the player edition, but once they log in they can change the password and email info easily. The email address is needed so the player will get updates when the GM updates what the player sees along with important RW program updates amongst other things. After having it explained to me it makes perfect sense that the license usually goes with the player. If needed it is best if each player gives the GM the money for the purchase (or purchases the license themselves, which is not recommended).

This will become a problem when after running for awhile and a single new player gets involved, he will have to pay $10 for a license because no one else is joining in at the time and can't get the discount.

Bruce

 

[Kendall-DM]

Kendall-DM...........Spy?

Though I think of myself a highly skilled programmer, I am just a dedicated fan of both pieces of software, and thoroughly impressed with the job Rob and his team have done. Spy is just a special board title I was given last year (2013) after playing Resistance with the LWD team there. I'm just a guy on this board with some specialized knowledge.

 

[Viking2054]

This will become a problem when after running for awhile and a single new player gets involved, he will have to pay $10 for a license because no one else is joining in at the time and can't get the discount.

Bruce

Why would this become a problem? No one need discuss any kind of group discount some people received because they grouped up for a purchase. And who is to say that the new individual couldn't group up with some other late comers in the local gaming community and still get a group discount?

Besides, at least for my group, we have three active GM's and one that runs a mini campaign once a decade (at least that's what it feels like). So out of a group of six at the table, I expect half of them to eventually get the full license of RW. But I'm waiting for a few key features I consider essential before I broach the subject with my group. And since I'm not the current GM for the group, I can wait a bit.

 

[Grimmric]

I am still amazed that $10 for a player is a big thing.
If you cant afford it you dont have to buy it.
If you think its something that will enhance the experience and help you enjoy the game a bit more, the $10 is a small price to pay.
Its not like you have to pay it monthly as when you play games like WoW.