Quick Update on Hero Lab Online from GenCon

[Toblakai]

After reading the FAQ:

Referring back to an older post I had replied to:

- HLO is online only, requiring an active connection to use. (They already said this.)
- HLO stores all information online. No portfolios in or out.
-- Side Effect: If you stop your subscription you lose access to your data.
- HLO is a closed system. No data files. No authoring kit. No custom outputs.
- Desktop Hero Lab is now in maintenance mode.

1. Online only but looks like it will have a view mode!
2. Portfolios can come in and out!
2a. You don't lose access to your data!
3. Not a closed system!
4. Not in maintenance mode! (just no Starfinder, maybe)

So looks like the sky isn't falling!

 

[BJ]

After reading the FAQ:

Referring back to an older post I had replied to:

1. Online only but looks like it will have a view mode!
2. Portfolios can come in and out!
2a. You don't lose access to your data!
3. Not a closed system!
4. Not in maintenance mode! (just no Starfinder, maybe)

So looks like the sky isn't falling!

Hooray! Good thing, falling sky sounds painful, not sure I could make my Dex save right now.

 

[Parody]

1. Online only but looks like it will have a view mode!

We'll see; view mode is a "planned" feature, and printing is in the "near future."

2. Portfolios can come in and out!

"Our goal is..." and "Transferring characters will be a multi-step process" are answers that do not inspire confidence. Again, wait and see.

2a. You don't lose access to your data!

Glad to see they're allowing some form of export without a subscription. The form of export is what we'll all want to see, though.

3. Not a closed system!

The comment on Facebook was that you'll eventually be able to do what you can do with the editor in Hero Lab, so this one's a mixed bag. How mixed will have to be figured out by the folks who have experience with creating complex data files, once Hero Lab Online has gotten to that point. (That definitely doesn't include me. I was able to make a weapon modification once upon a time, but never could figure out how to share parts of a description between items. Similarly, my playing around with making a Paranoia XP system never went anywhere. :)

4. Not in maintenance mode! (just no Starfinder, maybe)

"No new systems are planned for Hero Lab Classic" (paraphrased from a post on Facebook) is maintenance mode to me.


I'm one of the folks that play in places with poor or no cellular access and no WiFi (game stores, conventions, people's basements) so for me a tool like this is a tough sell. Thankfully I don't plan on playing Starfinder any time soon and that's the only announced game system, so it doesn't matter all that much for now. It's what we end up with a couple years down the line that'll be important.

 

[Farling]

"No new systems are planned for Hero Lab Classic" (as posted on Facebook) is maintenance mode to me.

The use of the suffix "Classic" usually refers to a version of a product that isn't going to be maintained as much as it previously was.

If they'd named it something like "Hero Lab Desktop", then that would indicate that support will continue as it did before.

It is going to be interesting to see how the Pathfinder Community Pack gets converted. It seems obvious that they aren't using the same data file formats for online and offline versions, otherwise Starfinder would be launched on the desktop version as well.

 

[Farling]

I'm one of the folks that play in places with poor or no cellular access and no WiFi (game stores, conventions, people's basements) so for me a tool like this is a tough sell. Thankfully I don't plan on playing Starfinder any time soon and that's the only announced game system, so it doesn't matter all that much for now. It's what we end up with a couple years down the line that'll be important.

It isn't just poor or no WiFi which is the problem; it is the fact that open/public WiFi networks are easily hackable that makes them unwise to use on a regular basis.

 

[Alewis]

These new features don't seem worth the inconvenience of needing a connection. As your products sole purpose is convenience I don't think this was a wise move.

Maybe I'm missing some key features because you've communicated this launch so poorly but as I understand it, the main draw is shared party resources? This requires everyone at the table to have HLO? That's so rarely going to happen that this is a waste of time.

 

[jphealy]

I'm upset by this announcement. I really love your work with HeroLab and have readily spent a good bit on Pathfinder products.
Could the devs shed some light on what these features that Starfinder has that need online functionality that Pathfinder doesn't have? Having played both they are not apparent.
I'll be honest without that clarification this feels like a naked cash grab and all the new online features are detriments from mine and my players points of view

 

[BJ]

"No new systems are planned for Hero Lab Classic" (as posted on Facebook) is maintenance mode to me.

I haven't found this specific sentence on Facebook, and if I do I will fix it, but I did see where one of our staff said:

"Hero Lab for the desktop isn't being abandoned for legacy systems, but moving forward the plan is to support new game systems, starting with Starfinder, through the Online platform exclusively."

That isn't accurate.

We intend to keep using the term "Classic", however we are NOT abandoning the Classic model entirely. We aren't even saying we won't add new systems. Once migration of Classic systems to online occurs people will actually have access to their data packages in both Classic AND Online in many cases. We are even actively looking at at least two systems for Hero Lab Classic that we've been in meetings about over the last few weeks and are not yet at liberty to discuss openly, as nothing is final yet.

We understand new things can be scary and Hero Lab Online isn't for everyone. We encourage you to try it and continue reading the info coming online about how it will work in the weeks ahead. Ultimately the decision to use it or not is up to you and we respect whatever decision you make, Hero Lab Classic will still be there for your use regardless of if you choose to interact with Hero Lab Online.

 

[Noven]

I haven't found this specific sentence on Facebook, and if I do I will fix it, but I did see where one of our staff said:

"Hero Lab for the desktop isn't being abandoned for legacy systems, but moving forward the plan is to support new game systems, starting with Starfinder, through the Online platform exclusively."

That isn't accurate.

We intend to keep using the term "Classic", however we are NOT abandoning the Classic model entirely. We aren't even saying we won't add new systems. Once migration of Classic systems to online occurs people will actually have access to their data packages in both Classic AND Online in many cases. We are even actively looking at at least two systems for Hero Lab Classic that we've been in meetings about over the last few weeks and are not yet at liberty to discuss openly, as nothing is final yet.

We understand new things can be scary and Hero Lab Online isn't for everyone. We encourage you to try it and continue reading the info coming online about how it will work in the weeks ahead. Ultimately the decision to use it or not is up to you and we respect whatever decision you make, Hero Lab Classic will still be there for your use regardless of if you choose to interact with Hero Lab Online.

Just not for Starfinder.

 

[BJ]

Nope. Not for Starfinder at this time.

 

[Parody]

I haven't found this specific sentence on Facebook, and if I do I will fix it, but I did see where one of our staff said:

"Hero Lab for the desktop isn't being abandoned for legacy systems, but moving forward the plan is to support new game systems, starting with Starfinder, through the Online platform exclusively."

It was paraphrased from this statement plus the previous postings about Starfinder not coming to desktop Hero Lab (which was restated in those Facebook posts).

Regardless, it doesn't change much at this moment if you're not planning on playing Starfinder. I highly doubt you're going to stop releasing new material for the existing systems that have new published material coming. It's what happens down the line that will matter, starting with how Hero Lab Online works in the field.

 

[Fallenjack]

Q: Will Hero Lab Classic support Starfinder.
A: Starfinder is a unique system with various aspects that are much better suited to Hero Lab Online. Heck, that’s why we’re focusing on Starfinder first! Consequently, we will not be offering Starfinder in Hero Lab Classic, at least initially, as it wouldn’t be as powerful or enjoyable to use.

This makes me sad, I have been pouring money into HL and had high hopes for Starfinder being something that would be supported. As someone that runs organized play, I use HL a lot and I can tell you from experience that most conventions that I have run at and FLGS have either crap for internet connections or spotty LTE coverage at best.

From my point of view. It's a lose, lose, proposition. Say I pay the $20.00 to migrate my content (which mind you I already paid for) I get to view it only if I choose to stop paying you. So I paid for the core books and now I get to view it, how is that different than just busting out the core book? I use HL to make things and play dynamically at the table, to cut down on math, to get people started in the game quickly by making quick characters. So in your scenario, I can view the licensed content but I can't do anything with it until I pay you more. Just saying there is no value in your deal from my point of view.

I get where you are coming from but I don't agree with it. Always online nonsense is always anti-consumer no matter how you slice it. That said, it's a mote point to shout from the hills this early, so I will wait and see what kind of offline features you give us.

P.S - Also Starfinder is not unique, it is slightly different; yes ship combat has been added and that is new but not much else. We have two AC's now and some other rules have been dropped, new words to describe old behaviors at best.

 

[Tumorseal]

The migration fee is the worst part of this. Flat out extortion to access the content some of us have dumped hundreds of dollars into.

I was honestly planning on putting hundreds more into Starfinder. But now I am weighing the sunk cost fallacy in my head and looking for an alternative.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

The migration fee is the worst part of this. Flat out extortion to access the content some of us have dumped hundreds of dollars into.

I was honestly planning on putting hundreds more into Starfinder. But now I am weighing the sunk cost fallacy in my head and looking for an alternative.

You're not losing access to any content you already have access to if you stick with Classic. I'm not happy about any of this either, but yours is an obviously incorrect statement.

 

[Amatyr]

The migration fee is the worst part of this. Flat out extortion to access the content some of us have dumped hundreds of dollars into.

As the migration* includes 6 months of access (so, what $12 value if it's $2/month?) it's a really nominal fee to add the web version. I think that's fine if there's an admin overhead.

* Bad word choice on their part. To me, migration means moving from one thing to the other, but since you keep full access to Classic HL, it's not that. Should change the term to something else to make this clear, I think.

 

[Winterfyre]

You're not losing access to any content you already have access to if you stick with Classic. I'm not happy about any of this either, but yours is an obviously incorrect statement.

He mentioned Starfinder, not Pathfinder.

There will be no classic version for Starfinder so yes, he would be losing all of his Starfinder content if he doesn't pay the monthly extortion fee.

Secondly, we have nothing but a vague "HLC will still work and all of your EXISTING datapacks will work" comment, which leaves them enough wiggle room to stop putting out data packs for HLC and still be telling the truth, yes, HLC will still work, but not if you want to use any material after a certain point.

Will they do this? Well, every other buy once use forever system I have ever been involved with that went to a monthly fee eventually converted everything to a monthly fee system so in my experience yes, we should plan on eventually everything moving to a HLO only model.

 

[LazarX]

Will the desktop HL be phased out for the web based program or will Starfinder come to the desktop as well? I really don't want to be forced to move to an online only platform but I don't want to be left behind either.

Despite what LW might say, It'd be very hard for them to resist the eventual temptation to close down the desktop app for the sheer problems of maintaining two parralel products. Especially when one is so much easier to implement and control, and anti-pirate.

 

[LazarX]

P.S - Also Starfinder is not unique, it is slightly different; yes ship combat has been added and that is new but not much else. We have two AC's now and some other rules have been dropped, new words to describe old behaviors at best.

It's considerably different. It's way more different from Pathfinder than the latter was from 3.5.

 

[Paragon]

It's considerably different. It's way more different from Pathfinder than the latter was from 3.5.

Doesn't mean its different in a way that specifically demands the online approach.

I mean, look, I get the advantage from LWD's POV: they can put out something that's platform agnostic and provides other benefits, simplifies their security issues in some ways, and produces a slow, steady income stream all at once.

That doesn't mean anyone else is required to find it an improvement in any way, shape or form, and for some of us, its an active deficit as long as it has no offline mode.

 

[Toblakai]

and produces a slow, steady income stream all at once.

I suspect $2/month doesn't provide a whole lot of profit after expenses. It would take 4000+ subscribers to just cover the cost of a server admin.