Question about future of Realm Works

[ShadowChemosh]

Thanks Acenoid and Parody for the info. I was really curious as it just seemed so very different from how I see people I know use the net. Appreciate it.

 

[ibecker]

I understand why RW is architected the way it is now, and I appreciate the cloud features - I currently sync my realm and access it from multiple computers, and I look forward to the rest of the promised capabilities.

However, it would be in the users' best interest to have a *completely* offline option, because without that, we are dependent on LWD forever, which leaves us vulnerable in at least two ways:
1) There are times when the LWD server is unavailable temporarily (rebooting for update, crashed, targeted by a DDoS, etc.)
2) The sad fact is that there might come a day when the LWD server will become permanently unavailable:

a) (heaven forbid) LWD goes out of business or is acquired by an unfriendly company​

b) LWD simply decides to stop supporting Realm Works (no product is current forever)​

To reiterate, I think that the cloud features, both current and promised, are a great value, and I intend to subscribe for as long as I use RW. However, from a user perspective, it is just good sense in the long run to want a way to use the non-cloud-specific features of RW without having to contact the cloud, ever.

-Ian

 

[Mystic Lemur]

The only time you must access the server is to create a new realm. If you absolutely have to create a new realm right then, then yeah. You might be out of luck. No reason you couldn't have an empty realm pre-created for such an "emergency."

As for LWD going out of business or no longer supporting RW, I'm sure they would give us a way to create realms off-line in such an extreme circumstance. I mean, if the server is going to go down for good, they wouldn't exactly have to worry about data-duplication any more...

 

[liz]

I understand why RW is architected the way it is now, and I appreciate the cloud features - I currently sync my realm and access it from multiple computers, and I look forward to the rest of the promised capabilities.

However, it would be in the users' best interest to have a *completely* offline option, because without that, we are dependent on LWD forever, which leaves us vulnerable in at least two ways:
1) There are times when the LWD server is unavailable temporarily (rebooting for update, crashed, targeted by a DDoS, etc.)
2) The sad fact is that there might come a day when the LWD server will become permanently unavailable:

a) (heaven forbid) LWD goes out of business or is acquired by an unfriendly company​

b) LWD simply decides to stop supporting Realm Works (no product is current forever)​

To reiterate, I think that the cloud features, both current and promised, are a great value, and I intend to subscribe for as long as I use RW. However, from a user perspective, it is just good sense in the long run to want a way to use the non-cloud-specific features of RW without having to contact the cloud, ever.

-Ian

Ian, I can definitely understand your concern. There are a lot of shady companies out there with questionable ethics, which have a penchant for leaving customers out to dry. There also may be the perception that we're a very young business, which also has its risks. Let me try to address your concerns, especially since they may be shared by others. I also encourage you take a look at Rob's (the company owner's) response to a similar concern.

1. A server outage would only affect users activating the product or creating a new realm, not working on previously created content. We try to keep our planned server outage to a minimum, but if you're concerned about the possibility of wanting to create a realm and finding the server is down (whether for planned or unplanned reasons), you can use the simple work-around that we outlined in our FAQ. You can create some realms right away, and they can be used at any point in the future without accessing the server. After that, they exist and you can allocate them for your own use at any time. So if our server is down when you wanted to create a realm, you can still do so without the server.

2. This is a two-parter, so let me split up my answers:

a. I can definitely understand why you'd be concerned about the possibility of a company going out of business, especially a small one that may be perceived as a start-up of some sort. Fun fact: Did you know that 40% of small businesses fail within a year. And for those that survive the first year, 80% fail within 5 years. Well, Lone Wolf has made it through those statistical hurdles, and has actually been in business for 20 years this September. The likelihood of us going out of business now is pretty low. Additionally, Lone Wolf is controlled by one owner (Rob), so he doesn't have to answer to a board of directors, which helps with matters.​

b. As Rob mentioned in the thread I linked you to above, we've continued to support products long after most other companies do. For example, we've even maintained support for Army Builder V2 for the past 10 years after superseding it with V3 in 2004.​

This all being said, thank you for your feedback. Let me know if you have any follow-up questions!

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Well, Lone Wolf has made it through those statistical hurdles, and has actually been in business for 20 years this September. The likelihood of us going out of business now is pretty low.

Congrats! Or is that happy anniversary.

Another good sign of a company is when they take on new people. In the last two years LW has hired more developers for both their lines of RW and HL. They also have more marketing and community interaction people now also.

 

[Geronimo82]

Also, Army Builder definitely still has full licensing. We reached a point where we weren't adding lots of new features regularly, which was the whole point of having the license renewals, since the revenue from the renewals paid for the new features. Once we stopped adding significant features, we stopped the renewals.

Rob, the emphasis is mine, because thats the core of the question I asked originally: "This is kinda aimed down the road, say year and a half to two years (or later), but is there a possibility that RW will get a version that is stand alone from the cloud server? Is there a possibility you would relook at the idea down the road?

How often are new realms created? Under normal use, realms will be created and then used for months or years. This makes your assertion rather specious IMO.

When said like that, of course it sounds specious. The point I was making is it wouldn't matter if I make one a year or one every hour: if I am required to have an internet connection to make a realm, then the program is not stand alone. Yes, I understand it can be used offline. I also understand I could make a bunch of them at the start and never again. I was just pointing out that offline use doesn't equal stand alone.

 

[rob]

Rob, the emphasis is mine, because thats the core of the question I asked originally: "This is kinda aimed down the road, say year and a half to two years (or later), but is there a possibility that RW will get a version that is stand alone from the cloud server? Is there a possibility you would relook at the idea down the road?

Given the way that the internet is becoming ubiquitous and a more integral part of everyone's usage of software products in general, I anticipate that there will be a progressively declining interest in a truly standalone version of any product across the software industry. However, I may be completely wrong.

Everything we do is re-assessed on a regular basis, so there is absolutely the possibility that we'll re-visit the way Realm Works operates in the years ahead. A significant driving force in what features we add to all our products is user requests. There's a separate forum explicitly for that purpose, which you'll find over here: http://forums.wolflair.com/forumdisplay.php?f=84. If there is enough demand for a 100% standalone version, it will be something we'll need to seriously consider.

 

[MaxSupernova]

Given the way that the internet is becoming ubiquitous and a more integral part of everyone's usage of software products in general, I anticipate that there will be a progressively declining interest in a truly standalone version of any product across the software industry. However, I may be completely wrong.

Everything we do is re-assessed on a regular basis, so there is absolutely the possibility that we'll re-visit the way Realm Works operates in the years ahead. A significant driving force in what features we add to all our products is user requests. There's a separate forum explicitly for that purpose, which you'll find over here: http://forums.wolflair.com/forumdisplay.php?f=84. If there is enough demand for a 100% standalone version, it will be something we'll need to seriously consider.

I think the fears come from the "sundowning" of game servers and things like that. I believe the concerns about this are "This is a great product and gamers as a group are very resistant to change, so we want to make sure that once we put our data here and start using it we will not get forced to do something else later when you close the servers."

We hate change. Heck, I know people who use old emulated ms-dos command line programs to calculate things...

I'm thoroughly satisfied with your responses, and the general attitude of the company, but I can see the reluctance in others about it.

Thanks for your openness.

 

[AEIOU]

MaxSupernova nails the issue I think is at least in part driving this request. And I agree with him that I'm totally satisfied with the current situation. For now.

*** sarcastic rant ahead ***

There is no way LoneWolf will ever fold -- they've been in business for 20 years! I mean, longstanding online service providers like GameSpy have been going strong for 18 years now and will be here forever. Heck, there is no way that a program like RealmWorks will ever be in danger of shutting down with the corporate structure it has backing it. The eventual death and inability to recover documents created with VisiCalc, WordPerfect and Lotus 123 were anomolies. There was no improvement that could be made on altavista. OS/2 was obviously inferior to Windows and people still shake their heads about Betamax. For good/bad/indifferent, AOL is still running (though admittedly it has had some minor setbacks in subscriptions). Pathfinder was quite literally built on the ruins of a previous empire. And gamers are a notoriously fickle lot....

*** end annoying rant ***

Right now, standalone is irrelevant to the vast majority. But it would be really good to implement an option to cut the cord...just in case. This is the reason I want printing and data import/export implemented as well. All the marketing assurances in the world do not support the reality of the internet, software development or gaming.

 

[Geronimo82]

Everything we do is re-assessed on a regular basis, so there is absolutely the possibility that we'll re-visit the way Realm Works operates in the years ahead. A significant driving force in what features we add to all our products is user requests. There's a separate forum explicitly for that purpose, which you'll find over here: http://forums.wolflair.com/forumdisplay.php?f=84. If there is enough demand for a 100% standalone version, it will be something we'll need to seriously consider.

Sounds like a plan. Thank you

 

[rob]

@AEIOU: Liz didn't repeat one of the items from the post she linked to above, so I'll repeat it here, along with a second key item that she didn't emphasize and that appears to be important:

5. We stated this during the Kickstarter and in other threads, and I'll re-state it here. If we ever abandoned Realm Works, we'll make sure everyone can continue using the product and/or get their data out before doing so. That's just the decent thing to do.

6. I'm the controlling owner of the company, so I'm not making empty promises that some faceless board of directors could overrule.

Does that adequately address the rant?

 

[AEIOU]

@Rob: As an alpha wolf supporter, I'm committed to the dream. I completely believe in you and your team. I also recognize that the program is still in its infancy and there are many, many updates still ahead--updates that are quite frankly more important and more useful than future-proofing. But I'm also a realist; hence my reminder that no matter how entrenched they become, most good things on the internet and in technology come to a rather unforeseen end.

You've heard that we NEED offline support for many months now. And exporting. And printing. I'll wait patiently for the promises to be fulfilled. I hope you won't mind if folks gently remind you from time to time.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

Why is this such a sticking point for you when the product is still in it's infancy? It's still learning to talk and walk on it's own, and you're trying to talk to them about retirement planning...

 

[Vargr]

Why is this such a sticking point for you when the product is still in it's infancy? It's still learning to talk and walk on it's own, and you're trying to talk to them about retirement planning...

I can understand why. The possibility for all of us to be able to salvage our data if something goes horribly wrong should be considered and planned for at the outset.

My game world, which I started 20+ years ago have been made in a number of systems (WordPerfect 4.1 and WordWorth for Amiga comes to mind), that I gradually lost access to and today have problems getting the information from.

I would hate to sit - years from now - with all my information in RW and no way to get it out. Here an option to print out would be helpful (that topic has its own thread(s), so don't start here, please).

I also understand the points Rob is making and even though I am not very keen on the whole cloud idea (in general) unless I control every physical aspect of it myself, I must say it works well in RW and the fact, that I can make a local backup alleviates some of my fears.

What I am trying to say is, that I think LW has done a good job and have made some good decisions. Yet I can also understand AEIOU concern. And yes, the "retirement plan" should be considered at the outset of your working life.

Mind you, I really hope that we will never need the "retirement plan", but it is prudent.

 

[Nikmal]

I can understand why. The possibility for all of us to be able to salvage our data if something goes horribly wrong should be considered and planned for at the outset.

But it was planned for at the outset as Rob and some others have said several times throughout several threads including this one. I am not understanding your confusion on that. things can go horribly wrong with any hardware. If you do not use the cloud service your hard drive or hard drives could go bad at the same time. You could back up the software to another drive and leave it and the original in the same location and there is a fire or some other catastrophe and you loose ALL data. The cloud service is just another means to keep a back-up off site. You can keep a back up on your own hard drive as well. You NOT need to just do cloud service only.

I would hate to sit - years from now - with all my information in RW and no way to get it out. Here an option to print out would be helpful (that topic has its own thread(s), so don't start here, please).

If you DO use the cloud service... there is nothing to say that you can't also back it up offline as well. Rob has said as much. Also he has said that as a company Lone Wolf WILL MAKE SURE you are able to get the data off of their servers with in plenty off time before they shut them down if ever. They would warn people that it is about to happen and that they will need to plan to do so... and then proceed to give everyone as much notice as possible to make sure they are able to pull it off.

I also understand the points Rob is making and even though I am not very keen on the whole cloud idea (in general) unless I control every physical aspect of it myself, I must say it works well in RW and the fact, that I can make a local backup alleviates some of my fears.

I am glad that helps.. but just keep it in mind that it was planned that you can do both a local back up and one on their cloud service too if you chose to use it that is. Also it is always a good idea to keep a back-up away from your original location.

What I am trying to say is, that I think LW has done a good job and have made some good decisions. Yet I can also understand AEIOU concern. And yes, the "retirement plan" should be considered at the outset of your working life.

Mind you, I really hope that we will never need the "retirement plan", but it is prudent.

I do not see this as a retirement plan, as it DOES have the offline support. You are able to do everything except create a realm offline. As Rob mentioned this will be supported for many many years even if Realm Works does not work out. They have done this with at least one of their ventures that got upgraded and they no longer produce that version. They have done so for 10+ years now and not looking to stop anytime soon. They have also given a work-around in case you do not have internet access or if it suddenly end abruptly is to create a few "blank" realms and then you will be covered for a long time. As your realm seems to be a long running one... you create ten more realms.. you should be covered for decades

 

[Vargr]

@Nikmal:

I don't think we disagree as such.

Yes, the cloud service is another backup option.
Yes, I can make a local back up of the database.
Yes, I can run offline as long as the realm has been created.

And all this is good. Lone Wolf has made some good solutions.

I was trying to explain to Mystic Lemur why it is relevant to look into the safety of the data in the long run (talking about a "retirement plan").

Apparently I didn't do it that well

When I write "something goes horrible wrong" I refer to the risk of Lone Wolf no longer being in business or simply RW no longer being supported.

When that happens we need to be able to run RW without the servers - we can already do that, so we can already access the existing data in case of a server fall out (temporary or permanently). I tip my hat to Lone Wolf for having made it this way and not insisting on allways-online. Thank you, LW.

This will tide us over for a couple of years.

After that RW will no longer run on the OS or the hardware available. And trust me, it goes pretty fast downhill.

When that happens we will have tons of data we can not access.

Thus we need a way to preserve the data. If it means exporting it all as PDF and print those out, so be it.

I do not expect Lone Wolf to fold anytime soon and pray it may never happen. But sometimes bad things just happen.

Luckily Lone Wolf has been very thoughtful in their design of RW (in more ways than one).


All of this just to try and explain why we should look into a fail safe if something goes horrible wrong.


Well, that was way too many letters for which I apologize.


Edit:
Oh, and I do use use the cloud server and I do backup my data to a RAID server in house and soon to a RAID server elsewhere in town.

 

[Acenoid]

Jup agree wholeheartedly to this. But I think this has been meantioned already in the feature request thread (printing - which seems to be on the roadmap) and (more importandly I think) exporting to other formats.

Well I suppose we can just hope and see how this will work out.

All the best to find a replacement developer.

 

[AEIOU]

Shhh, don't tell anyone but Simple Images have an export to PNG option.... Hadn't seen that before.