Print/Export created content.

[ShadowChemosh]

It's a little frustrating to be talked down to.

I think you are reading WAY too much into his written words. Nothing in his post comes across to me that way. Honestly what I get is just someone who is just "mentally" tired and wrote without checking his wording a dozen times.

I know my written words often comes across way harsher then I have any intent for it to when i am rushed or tired.

Also not every one here is a tech person and it would be just as bad if he was only speaking to part of the users of RW.

 

[mirtos]

I think you are reading WAY too much into his written words. Nothing in his post comes across to me that way. Honestly what I get is just someone who is just "mentally" tired and wrote without checking his wording a dozen times.

I know my written words often comes across way harsher then I have any intent for it to when i am rushed or tired.

Also not every one here is a tech person and it would be just as bad if he was only speaking to part of the users of RW.

I have to agree with Shadow on this. And even if 99.9% of his users are tech-savvy, as a business owner, Rob has to speak to everyone.

Thats the number one problem with buletin board sites, its easy to take offense. Ive seen it a lot in the last few days on different threads. (from many different people) I find it better to assume that people arent saying something to be rude, just that it might come across that way to yourself. If you read posts in that light, conversations happen much better.


Just my two cents.

 

[EightBitz]

A brief bit of history...

The subject of export was always something we figured would be wanted at some point, but we honestly didn't think it would be all that important. The subject of printing, however, was never even considered, since our vision for Realm Works has always been digital delivery of content to players.

Prior to the Kickstarter, we'd spent well over a year with 100+ users on our Beta team, and printing was not something that I recall ever being mentioned, let alone a priority for anyone. During the Kickstarter, enough people asked for it that we put it on the roadmap for after we got all the core functionality into place.

We also realized that we needed to boost the priority of exporting, but it still remained something that was planned for after the core functionality. First, you need to get the content INTO the product. Then you need to get it to the players digitally, as we originally intended. Once that's done, getting it out via other means would make sense. It's a stepwise evolution. At least, that's been our thinking on the subject.

Rob,

I hope you realize you can also target writers with Realm Works. Short story writers, playwrights, novelists, screen writers. Realm Works has a lot Potential (with a capital P) beyond your original vision.

Imagine someone has a long running series, like Star Trek, or a story arc series like Babylon 5. A product like Realm Works could track every character across every episode and facilitate continuity checking.

With a story arc series, the head writer could share limited content with an episode writer or with certain actors so they know only as much as they need to at the moment.

I'm sure there are other tools out there that are used for these things, but I doubt that they all have all the features of Realm Works, let alone all the planned features.

There may be a whole suite of feature requests that comes along with such a thing, including "we'd like our own, private cloud server", but those requests could also come with "here's my checkbook, tell me your price."

So, just wanted to tell you, I think you're selling your product short.

 

[hollowheel]

I have to agree with Shadow on this. And even if 99.9% of his users are tech-savvy, as a business owner, Rob has to speak to everyone.

Thats the number one problem with buletin board sites, its easy to take offense. Ive seen it a lot in the last few days on different threads. (from many different people) I find it better to assume that people arent saying something to be rude, just that it might come across that way to yourself. If you read posts in that light, conversations happen much better.


Just my two cents.

Actually, I didn't mean to suggest that what he was describing required tech savvy. I meant that his choice of words "I'm certain none of you have considered" was condescending.

But it goes to your point. Forum communication is often rife with misunderstandings, and I'll admit I was getting a little irritated and maybe misjudged Rob.

 

[Exmortis]

Actually, I didn't mean to suggest that what he was describing required tech savvy. I meant that his choice of words "I'm certain none of you have considered" was condescending.

But it goes to your point. Forum communication is often rife with misunderstandings, and I'll admit I was getting a little irritated and maybe misjudged Rob.

To play the other side, I had not considered what Rob said. And it has nothing to do with me being a geek on celestial proportions (both my geekness and my rotundness ok I have not eaten that many donuts, but could stand to lose a few). RW for me is a place to put my personal creation, my campaign world, and yes I take inspiration from many sources, but in the end it is all for my groups play and enjoyment. I do not even consider it for anything other use.

So in my context, I had not even considered the idea that if RW contained licensed material that could be exported and misused, because my intent is personal use only. I guess being a straight shooter and one buys everything, I despise thieves, and if I cannot afford it, I go with out until my piggy bank allows me otherwise, put me in Rob's labelled group.

And I took no offense.

 

[EightBitz]

Personally, I can be patient, but I would like Printing eventually. I'm not as worried about exporting though. Personally, I don't throw up web pages and with the Player Edition coming soon (hopefully) I shouldn't have to. Player Edition will allow my players to peruse the content I have put into Realm Works and revealed to them at their leisure.

However I like to print my notes, characters, monsters and other items I need to tell the story at the table. I may eventually use my laptop at the gaming table, but it can also get in the way, in my opinion.

Just a question though... How hard would it be to prevent printing to file or PDF printer? If you could ensure printing to paper printers only then that would solve some of our needs and might mollify Digital Rights Management requirements.

Many of us want the print/export feature to manage our own content in digital format. We want to avoid double entry of characters, plots and concepts that we create. Paper-only printing would not meet that need. There was another comment somewhere on these forums where someone mentioned that without this ability, Realm Works is just another product that locks in your data. The poster used different words, but to the same effect.

As far as other people's content, paper-only printing would prevent people from being able to print to a PDF that they could transfer to their tablet to study and annotate offline.

We take tablets for granted today, but it wasn't too long ago that they were an amazing technology. I find it sad that we have all this amazing technology that the industry keeps trying to prevent us from using.

 

[Ladyofdragons]

As far as other people's content, paper-only printing would prevent people from being able to print to a PDF that they could transfer to their tablet to study and annotate offline.

There is no such thing as paper-only printing anymore. I have the full version of Acrobat on my computer, so I can print to Acrobat as though it were a printer (it's listed as a printer in any program I use), which creates a PDF that looks the same as it would if I had done "export to PDF". There are other methods of doing the same thing. It's all just pixels and ASCII.

I understand Rob's point of view, they're stuck in the middle of the publishers wanting to get paid for their work and the consumers wanting to do exactly what they want with what's supposedly already theirs. I think both sides are a tad unrealistic.

What I would like to see:
* Export to XML of content owned by my account. I know XML isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I can use it to pull into Microsoft Word or something else to print up the content exactly how I want to see it. If it's out there to use then those of us who can do things with it will provide the functionality for those who want it. This would require the additional functionality of providing an OWNED ACCOUNT piece of metadata for each snippet, which may not exist. Not my content? I can't export it. Can't get any more secure than that, as anyone can choose to sit there and spend hours and hours entering book data and attempting to share it on the marketplace. And then the TOS and admins should come down on them and remove the content.

* Phase 1: SIMPLEST PRINTING EVER. You get to print the currently viewed topic (or image) like it looks on the page. Sure, it's not outputting your whole campaign into book format, but it'll get you that monster/encounter/ransom letter you need to pass out to your players. later on do more phases? possibly. But this would definitely be something.

 

[AEIOU]

Stuck in the middle is most certainly the right phrase....

I see Realm Works as the Napster of the gaming industry. It is undoubtedly being challenged by the gaming industry which is being forced to rethink media production and distribution. I'm hoping that the lessons learned from the last 20 years of change in the other media industries will help Lone Wolf negotiate an amiable solution that makes publishers happy while providing us gamers with an amazing tool for more effectively visualizing and managing the people, places and things that have always lived in our heads.

 

[AEIOU]

* Phase 1: SIMPLEST PRINTING EVER. You get to print the currently viewed topic (or image) like it looks on the page. Sure, it's not outputting your whole campaign into book format, but it'll get you that monster/encounter/ransom letter you need to pass out to your players. later on do more phases? possibly. But this would definitely be something.

I agree. We can screen print or use the snipping tool, so this would be simplifying a process that is already possible without stepping on toes.

What may be workable for publishers and Lone Wolf is a compromise for an authoring add-on that would provide royalties to publishers whose work is referenced. An extra $$$ per month to access formatting and templating.

 

[rob]

@hollowwheel, etal: Sorry for my choice of wording. I was mostly reacting to the assertion that "it's easy because it's in a database" (paraphrased). Since nobody had even alluded to the complexities and comments were being made about how it should be easy, I let the emotions take over and (wrongly) declared that nobody had considered the complexities involved. I'm sure many hadn't but it was a gross generalization on my part. Apologies to all.

Please understand that my involvement here on the forums is time I'm not spending on a myriad other tasks that also need to get done. The most fundamental of those is coding, as I'm an integral part of implementing core functionality within Realm Works. Heck, I'm often the critical path. So I'm trying to be as helpful as I can here on the forums in as little time investment as possible. And every minute I spend here equals a further delay in getting Player Edition and all the other features everyone is clamoring for into place. That means I don't spend copious time reviewing and editing every word I write. If it gets to a point where I have to do that, I'll have no choice but to curtail my posting to a bare minimum, and that doesn't really help anyone either.

Please cut me a little slack and I'll endeavor to take a deep breath before posting so that I avoid knee-jerk, gross generalizations like occurred above. Is that reasonable?

 

[mirtos]

@hollowwheel, etal: Sorry for my choice of wording. I was mostly reacting to the assertion that "it's easy because it's in a database" (paraphrased). Since nobody had even alluded to the complexities and comments were being made about how it should be easy, I let the emotions take over and (wrongly) declared that nobody had considered the complexities involved. I'm sure many hadn't but it was a gross generalization on my part. Apologies to all.

Please understand that my involvement here on the forums is time I'm not spending on a myriad other tasks that also need to get done. The most fundamental of those is coding, as I'm an integral part of implementing core functionality within Realm Works. Heck, I'm often the critical path. So I'm trying to be as helpful as I can here on the forums in as little time investment as possible. And every minute I spend here equals a further delay in getting Player Edition and all the other features everyone is clamoring for into place. That means I don't spend copious time reviewing and editing every word I write. If it gets to a point where I have to do that, I'll have no choice but to curtail my posting to a bare minimum, and that doesn't really help anyone either.

Please cut me a little slack and I'll endeavor to take a deep breath before posting so that I avoid knee-jerk, gross generalizations like occurred above. Is that reasonable?

Quite reasonable.

 

[Viking2054]

unique digital watermarks imbedded at time of purchase of third party content could possibly be used to solve the DRM/sharing problem. Exporting and printing should also imbed the digital watermark. That way, someone who shares purchased third party content can be found out by tying the code in the watermark back to the purchaser and they can have their license revoked (especially if a repeat offender).

With digital watermarking in mind, maybe exporting/printing should be restricted to the full GM version of the product and not be available for the player edition or web page view. Or possibly restricted to the account of the purchaser so only the person who purchased the content and is logged in can print/export.

 

[mirtos]

Viking, that only works if the exported content is only PDF format. (Watermarks).

 

[Viking2054]

Viking, that only works if the exported content is only PDF format. (Watermarks).

wouldn't that be the preferred format for sharing a mixture of text and graphic data across the internet? I've also seen watermarking or digital code embedding in e-books.

 

[mirtos]

I think it depends on what people want to do it. For sharing, absolutely, but if people want to do things like use this data in another format (I know there are writers that use RealmsWorks for organization, and they would obviously want to plug into other software).

Other web developers might want to build a different sort of website or sites for their campaigns (different from the Players View), and other people might simply want to plug it into word, or acrobat to make their own PDFs, or many other things. I think thats what EightBitz and I were alluding to in earlier posts (If Im incorrect EightBitz, I apologize for speaking on your behalf.

So while the PDf thing makes sense, and I believe thats what Paizo does, for other content types (which im interested in), then i imagine some type of control on whether people can or cannot export is a way i would think makes sense. You could make that control be handled on the server level and wouldnt sync with realms (meaning you'd have to be conntected to the internet to export content that either you dont own or you derived off of someone elses work from the marketplace). Any content you created from scratch could be exported regardless.

This is just a thought of how LWD could allow exporting of content and convince content providers that the content providers could have the ability to decide what sort of content is exportable or not.

 

[hollowheel]

@hollowwheel, etal: Sorry for my choice of wording. I was mostly reacting to the assertion that "it's easy because it's in a database" (paraphrased). Since nobody had even alluded to the complexities and comments were being made about how it should be easy, I let the emotions take over and (wrongly) declared that nobody had considered the complexities involved. I'm sure many hadn't but it was a gross generalization on my part. Apologies to all.

Please understand that my involvement here on the forums is time I'm not spending on a myriad other tasks that also need to get done. The most fundamental of those is coding, as I'm an integral part of implementing core functionality within Realm Works. Heck, I'm often the critical path. So I'm trying to be as helpful as I can here on the forums in as little time investment as possible. And every minute I spend here equals a further delay in getting Player Edition and all the other features everyone is clamoring for into place. That means I don't spend copious time reviewing and editing every word I write. If it gets to a point where I have to do that, I'll have no choice but to curtail my posting to a bare minimum, and that doesn't really help anyone either.

Please cut me a little slack and I'll endeavor to take a deep breath before posting so that I avoid knee-jerk, gross generalizations like occurred above. Is that reasonable?

Completely understandable and reasonable.

 

[Viking2054]

Other web developers might want to build a different sort of website or sites for their campaigns (different from the Players View), and other people might simply want to plug it into word, or acrobat to make their own PDFs, or many other things. I think thats what EightBitz and I were alluding to in earlier posts (If Im incorrect EightBitz, I apologize for speaking on your behalf.

First, in my opinion this only works for purchased material that LWD has either licensed or created themselves with the intent to sell. Things we create should be under our control and don't need a digital watermark unless you want to throw it up for sale on LWD's store for RW.

I don't disagree with you, but people with the player edition or using a web browser to view the content don't need to export. I can understand printing to paper or PDF for them though, and the PDF version should contain the digital watermark possibly with an extra digital tag to identify the player account or e-mail address of the web user printing the material to PDF. If exporting is limited to the full license (GM version) and only to the person that purchased/created the content then the only thing that needs any restrictions is purchased content.

Most people that write or try to write, myself included, don't need to worry about legal ramifications unless the work is not unique and can be considered derivative of some other parties Intellectual property. Trying to write a story in the Star Trek, Star Wars, Harry Potter settings would require permissions as far as I know and so would any other franchise. But most writers aren't going to share their works in progress outside a select few, until it is finished or near finished anyway.

I'm not averse to Rob and crew taking their time and thinking this through, but digital watermarks have been used in the past and could be used here, in my opinion. Maybe Rob and the gang will come up with something better, I don't know, but maybe not.

Now, for someone willing to sit down in front of their computer for hours on end in order to type all the info for some module/rule book into Realm Works I don't have a solution for you except for some kind of policing by LWD or this community.

 

[EightBitz]

Other web developers might want to build a different sort of website or sites for their campaigns (different from the Players View), and other people might simply want to plug it into word, or acrobat to make their own PDFs, or many other things. I think thats what EightBitz and I were alluding to in earlier posts (If Im incorrect EightBitz, I apologize for speaking on your behalf.

No, that's mostly correct. The one thing I would add is that I often prefer reading offline as well. Even if I buy someone else's game to run, I would most likely want to print it out, at least in parts, to study and make notes so I'm better prepared to run it.

The worst game I ever played was with a DM who had done no prep and no studying and was running a canned adventure. He was reading from the module, word for word. No imagination, no elaboration, no embellishment, no style. No fun.

I don't want to run games like that, and I don't want to be tied to my monitor for prep and study.

I understand the complications for Rob. I'm just speaking my mind.

 

[mirtos]

First, in my opinion this only works for purchased material that LWD has either licensed or created themselves with the intent to sell. Things we create should be under our control and don't need a digital watermark unless you want to throw it up for sale on LWD's store for RW.

Again, my suggestion would allow all content creators (you count as one) to decide whether their content could be exported or not. And obviously you could export your own content freely.

But if i put my content on the marketplace, for make it available for sharing (which i think is the same thing?, just for free), its not the worst thing in the world for me to decide if my content can be printed with/without watermarks. Hell, maybe i can even include a watermark, (so each content provider can provide their own watermark).
[/quote]

Now, for someone willing to sit down in front of their computer for hours on end in order to type all the info for some module/rule book into Realm Works I don't have a solution for you except for some kind of policing by LWD or this community.

That would qualify as fair/personal use unless they then decided to export it as their own, in which case, thats plagarism. I dont think LWD would have to police that. In fact, export or no, that would be the same issue if a user did that without the owner of the IP's permission (again, if they left it for their own group, thats fair use.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, so an actual copyright lawyer might have different info.

 

[Viking2054]

Sharing a canned module someone typed into Realm Works falls mostly under fair use with your regular gaming group. However, if it goes wider then that and is made public to the masses then I think you are crossing into infringement of Intellectual Property. I have a feeling once the holders of said IP are made aware of such broad disbursement of their creation is made public, they would either ask for recompense or seek to have the material removed.

Again, this has nothing to do with something you created on your own and is your unique material.

Although watermarking of your own creation may be a feature you could turn on/off at your whim... I think the actual imbedding of the watermark code into the material should be handled by LWD's store servers. That way they have a permanent record of digital codes that can be looked up when ever an IP holder comes knocking and asking for the name of the individual that infringed on their IP.

Theft of IP hurts smaller industries like gaming more then it hurts larger industries, but it does hurt everyone. Unfortunately, in the digital age it can't really be stopped. However, that doesn't mean the person(s) that did the initial infringement shouldn't be confronted and forced to make recompense.

If I had a campaign world I created with possible plans for selling sometime down the road, I'd be very upset if it was thrown up on the net for everyone to look at. I of course have no problem sharing with my local gaming group, unless they start sharing beyond the members of the group and a few other friends. The same would go for a writing project (book, screenplay, or whatever)... I wouldn't want any of it distributed to the general public and would be rather upset if it happened.

I suppose this brings up another question/point. How many people should you be able to share purchased content with? I know a few people that run games at the local gaming store, and they will run the same module over and over again for different groups that want to play through the module. Admittedly most of this is for D&D and Pathfinder events (which isn't a problem), but some of it isn't. How many groups should a single account be able to share purchased modules/campaign setting with? Should I be able to have 7 groups of 4 to 6 players and run that uber module for a different group every single night until its finished? What if two GM's, unbeknownst to LWD decide to share an account and one logs in in the afternoon and runs the game 7 afternoons a week for different groups of 4 to 6 players while another GM logs in at night and does the same thing? How many times should you be able to recreate a purchased module/campaign in a given period of time?