Mirtos i think maybe you think i was mad when i made my post .... to clarify i was not mad, I was being honest. I do not care about those aspects of realmworks because i am not going to use them. Printing and exporting are things i can use so i will hammer away at it until either we get it or I am banned from the forums.
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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
Print/Export created content.
- Thread starter EightBitz
- Start date
Well, when I first asked, I inferred from his answer that it wasn't a planned feature. He asked me why I would want that feature, how I would use it, what I expected of it, that sort of thing. That indicated to me that it wasn't in the scope of his original vision.
Now that he knows how many people want it, it's higher on his priority list. And he deserves proper credit for that.
Hmmm, ok. I stand corrected. I was under the impression export was always there. Im more than willing to admit that I'm wrong though.
Indeed.
I went back and finally noticed that I never posted in this thread, despite having posted about printing and exporting in others. Weird.
What I want is to export Topics/Articles in a format suitable for further processing and importation into a desktop publishing or word processing application. I'd like to provide templates that Realm Works would fill in with the data from the Topics/Articles it is exporting. Less useful than that is a non-customizable export into a fixed format (XML, CSV, etc.) which could then be manipulated externally.
Printing directly from Realm Works is less important to me, but could still be useful for some situations. Again, the more customizable the better.
What I want is to export Topics/Articles in a format suitable for further processing and importation into a desktop publishing or word processing application. I'd like to provide templates that Realm Works would fill in with the data from the Topics/Articles it is exporting. Less useful than that is a non-customizable export into a fixed format (XML, CSV, etc.) which could then be manipulated externally.
Printing directly from Realm Works is less important to me, but could still be useful for some situations. Again, the more customizable the better.
Please be aware that continually hammering on the issue won't actually make printing/export happen any faster. If anything, it slightly hurts your cause. The repeated harping and the rather strident/belligerent tone you chose to take in post #38 of this thread actually begins to sound like nagging, regardless of whether that's the intent. Remember, it's all about perception. The net result is that our impulse is tune you out. Fortunately, there are lots of other calm voices asking for this feature, so we're resisting that impulse.
Votes are votes. Each vote counts the same as everyone else's here on the forums, regardless of how loud or quiet a particular user chooses to be. Once we get Player Edition out, it's the number of +1's and distinct voices on a thread that will ultimately tell us how our users feel about a particular feature. The "squeaky wheel" approach works in many situations, but it won't in this case. Your optimal course of action is to get more +1's on this thread.
A brief bit of history...
The subject of export was always something we figured would be wanted at some point, but we honestly didn't think it would be all that important. The subject of printing, however, was never even considered, since our vision for Realm Works has always been digital delivery of content to players.
Prior to the Kickstarter, we'd spent well over a year with 100+ users on our Beta team, and printing was not something that I recall ever being mentioned, let alone a priority for anyone. During the Kickstarter, enough people asked for it that we put it on the roadmap for after we got all the core functionality into place.
We also realized that we needed to boost the priority of exporting, but it still remained something that was planned for after the core functionality. First, you need to get the content INTO the product. Then you need to get it to the players digitally, as we originally intended. Once that's done, getting it out via other means would make sense. It's a stepwise evolution. At least, that's been our thinking on the subject.
MaxSupernova
Well-known member
I really, really think that printing itself is not an issue.
Export in a good format is. You kill two birds with one stone if you can export it in a nice format. Users can print from that other format. HTML, PDF, XML, DOCX, ODF, whatever.
If there existed a good export functionality, printing becomes moot.
Export in a good format is. You kill two birds with one stone if you can export it in a nice format. Users can print from that other format. HTML, PDF, XML, DOCX, ODF, whatever.
If there existed a good export functionality, printing becomes moot.
I agree with that completely. In fact, printing is something that I dont want at all. Its the export feature that is key to everyone's needs that want either a print/export feature.
However, "docx" and "nice format" arent two words i normally use together
I wouldn't be too thrilled about HTML or XML. Those don't always render as human-eye friendly. If there are going to be multiple export options, including those would be great. But there is going to be one, I'd vote for PDF or ODF.
I would think that with something like a DB, that you would need multiple. If people are doing their own websites, something like HTML might make a lot of sense.
If people would want the data to do documents, than PDF might make a lot of sense. If people are writers and are putting together drafts, and importing into other software better suited to content layout, then XML makes the most sense. And of course a word file is good for them too (though not as good).
If people would want the data to do documents, than PDF might make a lot of sense. If people are writers and are putting together drafts, and importing into other software better suited to content layout, then XML makes the most sense. And of course a word file is good for them too (though not as good).
Here are two critical details to consider regarding export/printing...
Printing under Windows is huge can of worms - just ask anyone who's done it before. To make things more interesting, I can guarantee you that the moment we support printing, numerous voices will start screaming for the ability to print the data in exactly the representation THEY want for their personal preferences. For evidence of this, look at all the different character sheet formats that are created to suit the preferences of different gamers every year. It's an issue that has garnered huge volumes of complaints for our Hero Lab product, even though we made it possible for users to create their own custom output. Doing that isn't easy, and everyone wants it done their way with a few mouse clicks. Heck, there are entire divisions of large corporations dedicated to tasks such as printing and reporting. So printing is like opening Pandora's box for a tiny development team like us.
On the flipside, simply exporting data is relatively straightforward. But there's a big, nasty complexity with export that I'm certain none of you have considered. The moment that we allow export, how do we secure content when publishers start selling that content for digital delivery through Realm Works? You obviously want to get YOUR content out, but publishers aren't going to want you to freely export their content to XML or some other format, since someone out there lacking scruples will share that content freely with others. So now we have to solve securing that content in ways that can't be easily hacked, which is lots of work.
But things get even more interesting. What if you import published content into your personally created realm and integrate it - or even customize it? Now you have a mixture of content that is part yours and part published. Obviously, YOU want to get it all out, but the publishers won't necessarily see it the same way - those unscrupulous folks are still out there and happy to pirate and redistribute content. How do we reconcile this? How do we have export be truly useful for everyone while still safeguarding against pirating the content for other uses? This is something we have to at least solve on paper before we can implement anything, since anything we implement prior to the Content Market will need to be modifiable to accommodate whatever security we ultimately put into place.
As @Parody said above, if it was a piece of cake you'd have it already. Hopefully, the above explanation gives you some insight into the complexities involved that we need to solve...
Printing under Windows is huge can of worms - just ask anyone who's done it before. To make things more interesting, I can guarantee you that the moment we support printing, numerous voices will start screaming for the ability to print the data in exactly the representation THEY want for their personal preferences. For evidence of this, look at all the different character sheet formats that are created to suit the preferences of different gamers every year. It's an issue that has garnered huge volumes of complaints for our Hero Lab product, even though we made it possible for users to create their own custom output. Doing that isn't easy, and everyone wants it done their way with a few mouse clicks. Heck, there are entire divisions of large corporations dedicated to tasks such as printing and reporting. So printing is like opening Pandora's box for a tiny development team like us.
On the flipside, simply exporting data is relatively straightforward. But there's a big, nasty complexity with export that I'm certain none of you have considered. The moment that we allow export, how do we secure content when publishers start selling that content for digital delivery through Realm Works? You obviously want to get YOUR content out, but publishers aren't going to want you to freely export their content to XML or some other format, since someone out there lacking scruples will share that content freely with others. So now we have to solve securing that content in ways that can't be easily hacked, which is lots of work.
But things get even more interesting. What if you import published content into your personally created realm and integrate it - or even customize it? Now you have a mixture of content that is part yours and part published. Obviously, YOU want to get it all out, but the publishers won't necessarily see it the same way - those unscrupulous folks are still out there and happy to pirate and redistribute content. How do we reconcile this? How do we have export be truly useful for everyone while still safeguarding against pirating the content for other uses? This is something we have to at least solve on paper before we can implement anything, since anything we implement prior to the Content Market will need to be modifiable to accommodate whatever security we ultimately put into place.
As @Parody said above, if it was a piece of cake you'd have it already. Hopefully, the above explanation gives you some insight into the complexities involved that we need to solve...
This is precisely why I thought this is taking so much time and why Paizo and other large developers needs convincing rather than jumping onboard immediately. Rights management is a hugely complex issue....
We touched on this in the canon flag thread. We users would very much like to identify canon material. But rights owners will REQUIRE it.
Printing and export are quite literally Pandora's box.... And I want them both.
Actually I had thought about the ownership issue.
I would hope/imagine that it would make sense to only allow export of content that are flagged as "owning" the content. Of course, this only covers your first point Rob. Your second point is completely valid, and I wouldnt know.
I would be willing to make a concession that you only allowed exporting of content that is 100% owned by a person. I cant speak for other people, of course. Maybe you could have an allow/deny option for publishers/people that when they share content they can decide to leave that flag permanently on/off.
Its not a perfect solution, but it would at least allow those people who have their own content to do what they want with it.
And I agree, that it is a pandora's box for a tiny development team, but I also agree with other people that its an essential ability when dealing with campaign management.
I would hope/imagine that it would make sense to only allow export of content that are flagged as "owning" the content. Of course, this only covers your first point Rob. Your second point is completely valid, and I wouldnt know.
I would be willing to make a concession that you only allowed exporting of content that is 100% owned by a person. I cant speak for other people, of course. Maybe you could have an allow/deny option for publishers/people that when they share content they can decide to leave that flag permanently on/off.
Its not a perfect solution, but it would at least allow those people who have their own content to do what they want with it.
And I agree, that it is a pandora's box for a tiny development team, but I also agree with other people that its an essential ability when dealing with campaign management.
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So, this isn't directed at you, Rob, but I resent content providers defaulting to this idea that everyone's a thief. Or that they can stop thieves. I just dropped over a hundred bucks on PDFs that I'm 99% sure I could have pirated. Yet, content providers want to tie the hands of people like me (and, I'm sure, many others here) for the sake of the delusion that they can stop pirates.
Again, Rob, not directed at you. I understand your legal obligations and your desire to attract content providers. I just resent THEIR attitude.
Nobody can stop people from pirating if there's any sort of way to get things out of Realm Works, whether that's exporting or copy-pasting. Look at all of the published content that the various users have already put in themselves. How is Realm Works supposed to know whether a Topic about a character that I entered was completely created by me or not? Even if it is, how is it supposed to know that I own a copy of the physical book?
Hopefully LWD can convince publishers that the potential income and user utility of exporting and printing are worth more than the potential losses by the piracy that they already can't stop. (As mentioned, if you sell PDFs they're likely available for infringing download.)
Sigh.
Hopefully LWD can convince publishers that the potential income and user utility of exporting and printing are worth more than the potential losses by the piracy that they already can't stop. (As mentioned, if you sell PDFs they're likely available for infringing download.)
Sigh.
Viking2054
Well-known member
Personally, I can be patient, but I would like Printing eventually. I'm not as worried about exporting though. Personally, I don't throw up web pages and with the Player Edition coming soon (hopefully) I shouldn't have to. Player Edition will allow my players to peruse the content I have put into Realm Works and revealed to them at their leisure.
However I like to print my notes, characters, monsters and other items I need to tell the story at the table. I may eventually use my laptop at the gaming table, but it can also get in the way, in my opinion.
Just a question though... How hard would it be to prevent printing to file or PDF printer? If you could ensure printing to paper printers only then that would solve some of our needs and might mollify Digital Rights Management requirements.
However I like to print my notes, characters, monsters and other items I need to tell the story at the table. I may eventually use my laptop at the gaming table, but it can also get in the way, in my opinion.
Just a question though... How hard would it be to prevent printing to file or PDF printer? If you could ensure printing to paper printers only then that would solve some of our needs and might mollify Digital Rights Management requirements.
ShadowChemosh
Well-known member
OMG 100% agree. So much wasted programming hours and support hours spent on REPORTS! Its the bane of my existence at my job. I still have reports that print of Green Bar printers. I have allot of reports that go to CSV and Excel layouts which helps some with the allowing users to format stuff to there liking.
But at last count we have over 347,000+ reports. Many of which where made and tossed away after a specific person left the company.
I am just wondering with the advent of the free Player Website don't you already have this issue? I mean I could "reveal" everything from a publisher and sense it goes to a webpage I can print it or just pull the data out of the HTML. Granted it would be one article at a time but I could print to a PDF printer and just keep appending to the PDF.
Or is this also another reason why the Web-based version is coming later after the Windows RW
E?hollowheel
Member
Naturally we all thought of this. In fact, I'd assume its the #1 reason the product didn't ship with it. You shouldn't take our desire for commonplace functionality to mean that we're ignorant of the difficulties. By and large your core audience is bright, content-rights knowledgeable and tech savvy. It's a little frustrating to be talked down to. Most of us love your product.
I'm a designer, and understand the frustration of working hard on something only to have people criticize something you didn't think even mattered. However, I can also say that 9 times out of 10, the person with fresh eyes (a client in my case) has necessary and valid input.