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Player/GM view on separate screens?

IMPORTANT MODERATION NOTE!

Keep things under control, please. It's perfectly valid for people to disagree while still presenting their opinions in a constructive manner - and as their OPINIONS. As I said up-thread, there are as many different ways to GM as there are GMs. Everybody take a deep breath before posting here, else this thread will be closed and those who don't dial it back will be given an official timeout. I don't want to do that. :)
 
urm I wasn't attacking you or the product Rob.

I didn't take your post as an attack. However, you are a perfect example of what I was talking about in my post. Your word choice is often horrible. In the past, you have been a "poster child" of saying "Realm Works is useless" in one breath and "Realm Works is awesome" in the next. Please dial down the hyperbole and choose your words more carefully.

I don't have a problem with anyone stating that they think Realm Works is flawed in some way, as long as they do the following:

1) Outline how it could be improved (i.e. constructive)

2) Avoid casting aspersions (i.e. respectful)

3) Keep things balanced - without hyperbole (i.e. constructive and respectful)

4) Understand that they are sharing their OPINION - which is NOT absolutely correct and might not match the opinion of others.

There are some members here on the forums that have difficulty in honoring one or more of those criteria. That's when things become problematic for myself and other users.

Hope that makes sense! :)
 
Well being passionate about something often results in passionate responses, regardless of whether they were in the right or not.

I don't think i've EVER said realmworks is useless, I just have issues with some design choices that impact my user experience.

I am passionate about your product and you should take that as a vote of confidence regardless of whether I like/ dislike particular aspects of it.

pees ;-)

In the past, you have been a "poster child" of saying "Realm Works is useless" in one breath and "Realm Works is awesome" in the next. Please dial down the hyperbole and choose your words more carefully.
 
Well being passionate about something often results in passionate responses, regardless of whether they were in the right or not.

I don't think i've EVER said realmworks is useless, I just have issues with some design choices that impact my user experience.

I am passionate about your product and you should take that as a vote of confidence regardless of whether I like/ dislike particular aspects of it.

pees ;-)

Alright, "useless" was an incorrect word. However, now you're arguing details instead of my overall message, so you're missing the point. Numerous words you've chosen in the past have conveyed the same general sentiment as "useless" (e.g. "broken", "unusable", etc.). Please go back and review lots of your past posts for plenty of examples. Then re-read my post above. Hopefully, you'll be able to see and understand what I'm referring to.
 
I'm going to divert from Realm Works' feature list for a moment, because this is madness.

Probably. There are plenty of GMs who would find all the work some of us put into world building to be a form of madness. I read one memorable post in another forum a while back calling RealmWorks a tool for sperglords.

What I'm reading is that some of you guys want your players to be reading paragraphs/sentences of texts as they encounter NPCs, fight monsters, and explore the world. There is even a suggestion that players should be referencing this stuff as they go, interrupting the gameplay to remind their companions what the NPC or location or whatever is. A designated "lore keeper", right?

That's me brainstorming. Like I said in my post, Player View is all I use to share RW content with my players and even that was a big jump for me. Heck, using battlemaps and minis was a big jump for me. That wasn't how I remembered playing D&D in 1985. Now that I'm gaming again and running my own campaign, I've struggled with, but also enjoyed, experimenting with different styles of play and seeing what sticks. "What sticks," however, is often very game, group, campaign, and even session specific.

The designated lore keeper who reminds the players who that NPC's father was or when they learned that city was conquered or whether they know that ice demon resists fire spells is YOU. You as the GM are the one telling the story and running the game, and that means you should be giving players ALL of the information they need (and earned) to make decisions about what their characters do. And you should be doing this by describing the scene and the effect of their decisions. You allow a website or wiki to do this for you to your detriment.

For the most part, I agree with this. But when I first started playing D&D, there seemed to be more responsibility placed on the players for not only taking their own notes but even drawing their own exploration maps. When I first started playing D&D, maps were something behind the DM screen. Players were responsible for doing their best to sketch out their own maps to avoid getting lost.

Also, there were no battlemaps that I recall in any of the games my friends or I ran or at games I participated in at GenCon. It was the GM's job to describe the battlefield. Video games, VTTs, and the greater availability and affordability of tiles and minis have, however, changed player expectations.

My brainstorming on using a tablet with RealmWorks, I think, comes from an attempt to capture the flavor of older styles of play, without fully giving up the conveniences of current technology. Also, for some games, like ShadowRun, it could be a cool prop that adds to immersion.

Furthermore, your criticisms seem to challenge a big part of LWD's business strategy for RW. If tracking and providing reminders for game history, if being the party note-keeper, is a job that the GM is responsible for, then what is the purpose of the player versions? Why even have the ability to reveal anything?

I have had GMs dump statblocks on me when I did Knowledge checks on a monster, and it's ridiculous. Your players do not want a stat block. They want to know if they should be flanking the ooze or not. They want to know if they should be casting fireballs at the ice demon, or if he will resist their spell. All of this is information you could give a player in one or two sentences, even by just describing the effect of their actions, without having to STOP the game to let the players read a wiki entry.

What information to reveal and in what format to reveal it is a different issue than the mechanics of revealing that information. Personally, I would not reveal stat blocks, but I would reveal rumors about a beast and I would reveal facts uncovered through encounters with a beast. But other groups of players may take a more tactical approach. For example, I play HeroKids with my young boys and it is very important for them to see the monster cards when there is an encounter. Fine by me. It makes the game more fun for them. Different game, different group of players.

If they encounter an NPC their characters would remember, but their players do not, then you as the GM should be reminding them of what their characters would know. "You recognize the gatekeeper as your old friend from Bartertown, and remember the time you also burned off his hair with your fireball spell. He swore he would get you back for it one day." There. Done. Two sentences that would take less than 15 seconds to say, and now your players can make decisions about how to handle him and get through the gate, and no one has to stop and read anything. Not only that, rather than have your lore keeper read the guys' entire backstory, you can give them the info they need for the situation they are in at that moment - "hey this guy may hold a grudge".

Yes, in my current campaign, that is how I would handle this. But in a mystery/detective game, this approach would greatly detract from immersion for some players. In such a game, taking and poring over detailed notes to solve a mystery could be central to immersion and enjoyment of the game.

Also, as DM, there are many things I must keep track of and pay attention to during a game. Why shouldn't I outsource looking up notes from past sessions to a player? Let us also keep in mind that many players LIKE a lot of flavor and backstory. What is wrong with them reading over revealed details, some providing more detail than that spoken by the DM.

Whether accessing that information in RW during a game slows it down or speeds it up, whether it adds to or subtracts from the game, depends on the game, campaign, session, GM, and players.


The stuff you guys are asking Realm Works to do is functionality that is YOUR job as the GM. You should never be interrupting a game to have players read a snippet/wiki/whatever. And if your players are having trouble remembering content in a session that they learned DURING THAT SESSION, then you need to ask yourself some hard questions about your players' engagement.

RW is a tool to help a GM do his job. Part of that job is revealing content to players. LWD has created player versions of its software for the express purpose of players being able to access content that the GM has revealed and to take notes on it.

I agree with you. The Players version of RW has not been very useful to my group. I have one player who has a full version of RW and he has synced content and looked at it. But for the most part, none of my players have any use for the Player's edition.

Yet LWD has expended a great deal of effort to create and market the player edition, in some cases prioritizing player-edition features over DM features. And people are buying the player edition. And there are many GM's in the forums who are sharing their content with their players using the player edition and they are making feature requests for refinements to how content is shared, such as individual-player reveal and live sync.

So, while you may see the player-edition model of RW as encouraging poor game mastering, many GM and player users of the product disagree. Their requests to make sharing content with players better for their games is as legitimate as any other users' requests.

Realm Works is more than a sufficient tool for a GM to run a session,

Yes, I agree, it is a great tool to run your TTRPG sessions and you don't need any player to buy and use the player edition to run a great session with RW. Some groups, however, find that the giving players direct access to revealed content with the players edition adds to their enjoyment of the game.

because the only one who needs to be pouring through a wiki to remind themselves what the world is, is you, the GM. It is your job to describe the world to them, and any time you allow documentation to do that for you, you are missing an opportunity. Consider what you give up, and let your players focus on playing the game.

Sure, okay, that's how I use RW now. But consider what you and I, and our players, are giving up by forcing our players to have to rely on us to remind them of any previously revealed information. Maybe being the players' flesh-and-blood Evernote doesn't have to be the GM's job.
 
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100 % correct.

And I want to add to the very last paragraph: I only recently started to use RW so I can't provide a fully detailed realm to my players as of now. But even now, my players start to investigate (by asking me to show them xyz again on the screen) the world more closely. And it gives them the chance to add to the story in a way that I neither predict nor (unintentionally) limit by telling them only what I think is important for them now. They can actually make their plans on their own, they don't have to ask out of character who this gangleader was, what kind of gear the gang has, what their turf is etc. before they tell me they want to call him to ask for support. They can find out and come up with an idea on their own, immediately starting the roleplay with: "Hey ... , buddy, how are you? Listen, I remember that you and your guys are interested in ... , and recently I heard about ... , so I thought, maybe that's interesting for you, what do you think?". (Replace dots with imformation of previous and current missions the player looked up in realm works.)

Live sync to other devices is certainly not necessary to do so. Once in a planning stage I could sync and everything is fine. But it would be more convenient. However it is rather low priority compared to other features and should not take away from more urgent requests.

*reatreating again from conversation* :D
 
true enough

Alright, "useless" was an incorrect word. However, now you're arguing details instead of my overall message, so you're missing the point. Numerous words you've chosen in the past have conveyed the same general sentiment as "useless" (e.g. "broken", "unusable", etc.). Please go back and review lots of your past posts for plenty of examples. Then re-read my post above. Hopefully, you'll be able to see and understand what I'm referring to.
 
Probably....

I don't disagree that Player View is useful. I use it every session, mostly for maps, but occasionally other bits. And if players want to stop and say "Hey pull this up again, what did we learn about this guy?" and read text rather than have you do it, then that's their call. But you always give up something if players are stopping to read a wiki you wrote about an NPC instead of talking it over, hearing it from you, or even reading their own notes. Making the judgment of whether that pause in gameplay is worth the research of reading the NPC's backstory is a call you have to make as a GM.

But live sync would not be the answer to that, especially if you are running a mystery game. If my players investigated a crime scene and didn't bother to write anything down, then I can't help them. Showing them snippets as they investigate would detract from that feel, not add to it.

Although I don't think you were saying it would. As you said, you were brainstorming. But I want to make the point.

Lone Wolf built player versions because there's a market for it, but when people grumble that Realm Works is lacking because the player version isn't fully featured, I truly wonder. And when that confluences with the idea of the GM sitting there passively revealing snippets while players read on their computer screens, I was moved to respond. Mostly out of concern :P
 
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I have big trouble in using player view aparently. Someone with good experience, can you elaborate a bit how you solve the following issues I experienced:
- requires effort to show certain topics, in player view it is necessary to align everything then click on the circle to show it.
- Default Fonts seem to be tiny?
- A smart image with a partial revealed map, players enter unexplored area, do you start to draw & unreveal new parts of the map? (for me this takes a long time on the laptop)
 
@Acenoid. So far I have only used Player View for smart maps and to show symbols and some drawings (usually of architecture or natural obstacles). Smart Map reveal can be a little fiddly and getting things prepped before the session starts is helpful.

To reveal the map, you have to have the topic and the map snippet revealed. Then I open the map in a new tab. Then I click on the tool button and select "show in player view". In the Player View tab, I generally resize the window to take of the full screen and then click the reveal bubble. As I reveal more of the map, I generally have to auto resize as a go along. As you reveal more area, you need to remember to save as you go to have the changes shown in the player view.

I do most of what I described above before the game session. I've gotten pretty good with the reveal marker and select-area tools so it doesn't slow down the game much, though some maps are more challenging that others to select areas to reveal without revealing too much or not enough.

It certainly speeds the game up over explaining what they see and have the players try to sketch out a map on grid paper.
 
Once the map is on display on the player view screen, it doesn't take long to reveal a new section of map when the party move into that area. I consider it no slower, and perhaps quicker, than drawing the outline of the map on a gaming board.
 
- requires effort to show certain topics, in player view it is necessary to align everything then click on the circle to show it.

Prior to the game session, you'll probably have a good idea regarding the major of topics the PCs will interact with that you want to show in Player View. So add them to Player View in advance, position them where you like, and hide them all. Then you can very quickly show them as needed during the session. There's always going to be stuff you didn't expect, but the frequency should be relatively low, so showing that stuff on the fly won't be that big of a deal. That's what I do, and it's worked extremely well for me.

- Default Fonts seem to be tiny?

You are probably using a 1080p display at 1080p resolution. Try setting it to 720p instead. That should solve the font size issue for you.
 
<rant on>

There are as many different ways to run a game session as there are GMs out there. When we set out to create Realm Works, we focused on addressing needs that other products didn't touch. So we very intentionally designed Realm Works to NOT be a Virtual Tabletop. Of course, that doesn't stop anyone from thinking we SHOULD be a VTT. :)

But the simple reality is that, if we did add more VTT capabilities, then we'd start being directly compared to other VTTs. And then people would be complaining that we don't support light sources, or whatever else they think we SHOULD have in the product. So it doesn't matter what we do, someone out there will consider us stupid for not creating exactly the product they happen to want. Our objective is to create a product that a significant number of GMs DO want, with a tiny team, and I believe we've largely achieved that thus far - plus the list of what we DO offer continues to grow over time.

For those who want a VTT, Realm Works is not the best choice. There are multiple other products out there that do that stuff reasonably well. However, Realm Works overs a vast array of capabilities that NOBODY ELSE offers. If you want THOSE features, then Realm Works is an excellent option and well worth the investment.

Adding "live sync" was included in the feature survey we did early last year. It was not high on the collective list that everyone voted on, which means it's a capability that some felt is a "must have", while others couldn't care less. It will again be on the next survey, which will follow at some point after the Content Market goes live. Perhaps it will fare better this time around. You'll all have an opportunity to lobby the community for your personal favorites at that time. :)

<rant off>

Thanks for this information. And I tend to agree that Realm Works does exactly what it was designed to do, and does it very well. It's a world building and campaign management tool. A pretty awesome one at that. I've actually not had any complaints yet about a LWD product beyond some bugs which get fixed shortly after reporting them usually. So kudos to your team.

Would it be nice if RW had more VTT capabilities? Sure it would. Is it required, not really. When I want a VTT to run a game online I reach for other programs. When I want a comprehensive database with so many robust features I'm still learning about them for my campaign world, I reach for Realm Works.
 
I don't really want a VTT, I use a mat to play on with mini's, don't plan on changing that. I would like the ability to reveal things like room descriptions, pictures of monsters/characters, treasure found in rooms, the name of businesses (and the associated NPC's) as the players wander through towns, etc. Do VTT's do this (never really looked), I thought they were mostly for combat management and dynamic mapping?

I also really would not want to enter the same information into 2 different places, one is already enough...

D20 Pro does this to an extent. Then again, it's a pain getting things set up if you plan to use it's built in combat system. And you have to set up the handouts in advance, then remember to send them to players (and remember to revoke them later).
 
You can get cheap second monitors which are powered by the USB port and also plug into the video port on your laptop. I use one of those when GMing.

The 2 friends houses I play at do not have anywhere to put a monitor (small room, small table) laptops take up all the space, would be nice to use the laptops for this.

I GM at a friends house in a small room. They have a small flat screen monitor that I use that doesn't take a lot of space. I place it in front of my laptop to conserve space.

Another option is to get a small projector to hook to your computer, but you would need a blank wall to project on.
 
I started to use my tablet as a second monitor to my laptop. You can use apps like Splashtop for this. I hook both my laptop and tablet on my friends wifi and that works fine. As a small device it can be handed down to the players around the table.
 
I started to use my tablet as a second monitor to my laptop. You can use apps like Splashtop for this. I hook both my laptop and tablet on my friends wifi and that works fine. As a small device it can be handed down to the players around the table.

I did that when RW first came out and it worked well. Just make sure you test it and know what needs to be done before the game. :rolleyes:
 
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