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Phew, and more questions about utilising the different topics

A

Acenoid

Well-known member
Hi again,

Sorry for spamming the forum with all those threads. I have looked through a few others to see how others are working with RW and I learned alraedy a lot of useful stuff alraedy.

However, I'm a bit baffled if I'm making my planning to over-complicated and maybe someone has some ideas or input how I can improve my organisation of snippets / maps / topics:


There are a few groups created so far:

a town (community)
----- it's districts (urban)
----- ----- an location that is important to the story (location/building)

In a similar fashion I have begun to add people / groups / organisations. I filled all the info in with the default category suggestions and kept the information general, so it could be theoretically used at a later time again.

Now I wondered how to include the "quest" around it, so I added the following tree in the Event group:

Storyline
----- Scene 1 which plays in the location mentioned above
----- Scene 2 etc...

Now , it is bugging me, that the scene is described in the scene in the storyline tree, however the maps and more details about the location are residing in the location topic (as well as a smart map). I have not yet managed a campaign but I would have to jump around between two topics and look for information.

So what do the pro's say? Did someone use a similar structure and how did it end up? Maybe it would be nice to see some examples (so far I just found a handful of screenshots that also seemed to orgarnise it similar.)

I'm still at the very beginning I fear :P
 
I've hit the same issue, and have varied my responses over time. Honestly, you may want to try it a few different ways and see which works best for you.

I think that once the Repository/Marketplace features are in place, the methods for doing some things will change significantly. For example, when the Repository is available, you would be able to prepare a skeleton of just topics with no details. Then make two copies, one in which you would enter only the location details, and the other in which you would enter the details of encounters that occur at that location. By combining these two into a new "game running" realm, you have clean copies of each to use for other groups AND a combined set for use each time you run a game there.

In the meantime, we will need to juggle viewing separate tabs or mixing data that feel like it should be separated more.. whichever feels more comfortable. In some cases, you may do both.
 
I have not used RW at the table yet. So I do not have any real life experience.
But one of the features is that you can have several tabs open at one time. So you would have the Scene tab, Location tab and map tab open simultaneously. So you do not need to seek each topic in the topic list.

You still need to flip between them, but is that any different from having a set of papers in front of you?

Also the fact that there are links between them makes it easier to go from one topic to the next. A feature that my papers always lack ;).
 
After running my first RW game I found this to be a problem too. I discovered that I had spread out my information too much. Flipping between tabs was not the big issue, it was remembering where I put all the info!? As I was building the adventure I put some info under the NPC it connected to and other info under the location of the scene and yet more info under the plot lines section and so on. In the end I had the needed information spread across RW and missed things at the table that I either forgot about or couldn't find. So, I need to be more purposeful and streamlined in data entry. I either need to enter really important stuff in multiple places (or at least links to it) and/or come up with a could template or article for storing all the important info in a central place. Still working on a solution. It's hard to fix it at this point without starting over, but in the future I'll do it differently.
 
> meek75:
> it was remembering where I put all the info!?

Exactly, what I'm thinking atm. If you come to some conclusions please let us know :)

Anyone else who had experienced this issue and actually found a good solution?
 
I wanted to add that the game I'm running right now is on the sandbox side of the scale. If I were running a more traditional linear game where I could plan on the players going certain places and doing certain things during a given session then organization would be easier. In my current game the party arrived in a village and had freedom to go and do as they chose. As they met people they uncovered various quest lines and plot threads. They then chose to investigate the things that interest them or that they find pressing. There are a few time specific events I can plan on happening for sure, but a lot depends on player choices. I think I will do a much better job next time of planning from the ground up, but I'm not sure I can fix it for this game. At lest, not without a lot of work I'm not eager to do.

One thing that would be helpful to me, but isn't possible in RW at this point, is putting things in multiple containers. My main tool for organization is the almanac's hierarchy. I would like to have things grouped in multiple ways so that, for example, if the party is investigating the church I can group all the plot threads and people that are significant under that location. However, the priest may be significant to multiple thread and multiple locations. Currently, I have to jump around tabs a lot. I know I can use relationships to organize in multiple ways, but I can't see that at a glance like I can the almanac hierarchy. I am anxious to get a look at some fully fleshed out realms to see how various people do things. The example realm that comes with RW is way to basic to be helpful in this regard.
 
meek75 said:
Flipping between tabs was not the big issue, it was remembering where I put all the info!? As I was building the adventure I put some info under the NPC it connected to and other info under the location of the scene and yet more info under the plot lines section and so on. In the end I had the needed information spread across RW and missed things at the table that I either forgot about or couldn't find.
Click to expand...

Oi vey.... Yes.

One solution would be to add functionality to "clone/copy/create child" individual snippets that would retain their links across multiple topics. Edit one, change many.

In the paper file world, I make multiple copies to put in multiple folders. Which of course becomes a maintenance nightmare. I'm hoping RW can do some of the heavy lifting by keeping track of those other locations for me at some point down the road.
 
Meek,

I run a total sandbox, and I found that if I start everything at the storyboard, the storyboard will link out to everything I need. Then, when I'm at the table, I only have to have the storyboard open as my main screen, and click my tag links to get to the info needed. The storyboard can get to be a pretty big spaghetti mess with all the connections, but it does keep things a click away.

I tend to have a main arc, 3-4 sub arcs, and then "episodes" which break down into events. I break each division into its own storyboard.

Within each episode, I try to enter in all the information (generally about one sheet or two in Word) that lists a short synopsis of what is expected to happen, the npc players involved for that point, the events that are going to happen and the player characters involved.

When you put that info in, it's easy to see where each of those items lay in the other sections of Realm Works, and if you're actively linking it becomes easy to get to the info at a single click. Below is the synopsis for the second adventure session, or episode, of my campaign.

In this example, you're looking at an "episode" (I try to make each episode last 1-3 gaming sessions).

Example:

Previously in Avenaria,
Someone launched a siege attack against the city of Creston, the town that protects the border between Halinde and Linande. No warning came, and none of the siege weapons used was spotted before the morning fogs started to lift. The first volley of stones from the siege weapons burst a hole in the wall, which was unusual, given the sturdy construction of the walls. A horde of goblins streamed for the breach in the wall, led by an oddity, Red Skinned Orcs, the likes of which had never been seen before this. The party raced in to fill that gap and held the breach against the goblins. During the battle, the Duke and his Mage joined in the fray, and shortly after the fight died down, the Duke called for the party members to join him in the Witch and Flagon.

Heroes
Arianna (Haunted ½ Elven Oracle) played by Donna
Chamille (Elven Bard) played by Sabrena
Olvan Hamstringer (Dwarven fighter) played by Gabe
Teleryn (Tiefling Magus) played by Matt
Trianna (Elven Sorceress with a mild case of OCD) played by Lisa
Vaeriel ( ½ Elven Rogue agent of the Order of the Orb) played by Katrina

Nonplayer Characters
Duke Ummor Tralain: Human Fighter, and Duke of Creston
Arcanus Keanne: Human Mage. Advisor to the Duke
Mauhak Splittrunk: Orc Shaman
Lurtzog Snakebite: Orc Barbarian
Finarfind Veilwind: Elven Mage
Georguy Grayerson: Male Human. Owner and proprietor of the Witch and Flagon
Enen Grayerson: Female Human. Wife of Georguy, and cook for the W&F
Eryet Barrows: Female Human. Barmaid for the Witch and Flagon
Britha Engoren: Femle Human. Barmaid for the Witch and Flagon

Episode Synopsis
Duke Tralain relates to the PCs that by them holding this wall, he was able to divert other forces to other areas of the city where goblins and orcs like the ones the PCs fought had overrun the wall. He doesn’t understand how the siege weapons could have been moved into place without anyone noticing, since the Orb is usually very vigilant. Arcanus Keanne suspects magery, but isn’t sure what kind. Both are very concerned about why orcs would be attacking a city, and where these redskinned orcs are coming from.

Events

Talk with the Duke: The Duke and Keanne will ask the party to find out what’s behind the attack, and the Red Orcs. Tacchi Viorenzi will be adamantly opposed to this, casting aspersions on the PCs at every turn.
Investigate the Siege engines: Fight with some goblins, meet Finarfind Veilwind. Much beyond the players capabilities, but will disclose some about the Red Orcs and how they are being “made” from orcs.
Find the Nearest Orc Camp: Speak with Mahauk Splittrunk, Shaman of the Red Elk Orcs. He claims that raids have happened on the camp and that many of his peoples are being captured and taken.
Click to expand...
 
meek75 said:
One thing that would be helpful to me, but isn't possible in RW at this point, is putting things in multiple containers. My main tool for organization is the almanac's hierarchy. I would like to have things grouped in multiple ways so that, for example, if the party is investigating the church I can group all the plot threads and people that are significant under that location. However, the priest may be significant to multiple thread and multiple locations. Currently, I have to jump around tabs a lot. I know I can use relationships to organize in multiple ways, but I can't see that at a glance like I can the almanac hierarchy. I am anxious to get a look at some fully fleshed out realms to see how various people do things. The example realm that comes with RW is way to basic to be helpful in this regard.
Click to expand...

If the priest is involved in multiple plotlines, wouldn't there be links between the priest and all those locations and plotlines where he appears? It sounds like you might not have as much linking going on as you need to weave everything together. In Realm Works, everything hinges on linking things together.

There are two very convenient ways to handle "secondary containment". The first is to use relationships to associate the priest to the different locations he can appear. Alternately, you can use Storyline topics. This situation is exactly why they exist. The purpose of the Storyline topic is a place to encapsulate all the core elements of that arc. You can reference all the locations and NPCs that are involved in the arc, providing you with a "hub" for everything pertaining to the arc. Since the Storyline references everything it needs, you can just keep it open in a tab and open links in a new tab. If you are viewing content referenced by the Storyline, you are also only two clicks away from anything else referenced, since one click will take you to the linked Storyline and another to whatever you're seeking. If you use the Content Links list in the Transitions Pane at the right for this, the links are all summarized conveniently for you.

Hope this helps!

P.S. The post that @pjrichert just made is an excellent example of exactly this approach! I got ninja'd!
 
Last edited:
pjrichert said:
Meek,

I run a total sandbox, and I found that if I start everything at the storyboard, the storyboard will link out to everything I need. Then, when I'm at the table, I only have to have the storyboard open as my main screen, and click my tag links to get to the info needed. The storyboard can get to be a pretty big spaghetti mess with all the connections, but it does keep things a click away.

I tend to have a main arc, 3-4 sub arcs, and then "episodes" which break down into events. I break each division into its own storyboard.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I will play with the storyboard a bit more. I haven't used it as you suggest for a couple of reasons. I do, generally, love flow charts for game prep. However, my initial experience with RW flow chart tool was very disappointing. There are some really good free flowchart creators out there that far exceed RW abilities. Not being able to manually pull pieces of the flowchart around was a HUGE issue. The automatic placement of RW kept messing things up and looping things around in ways I didn't want. When the chart got even moderately large it really seemed to break down. Now, perhaps I gave up to soon on that feature. Have you used this method in a game session and found it helpful? My other big complaint was that the descriptions I put in my plot line don't auto-link and I am limited to one connection per element. I found that very limiting and frustrating. I am hoping that the story boards improve as RW get upgraded, but as they stand now I judged them very poor. However, if they work for you I'll go give them another chance. I have been known to throw the baby out with the bathwater on occasion.
 
rob said:
If the priest is involved in multiple plotlines, wouldn't there be links between the priest and all those locations and plotlines where he appears? It sounds like you might not have as much linking going on as you need to weave everything together. In Realm Works, everything hinges on linking things together.

There are two very convenient ways to handle "secondary containment". The first is to use relationships to associate the priest to the different locations he can appear. Alternately, you can use Storyline topics. This situation is exactly why they exist. The purpose of the Storyline topic is a place to encapsulate all the core elements of that arc. You can reference all the locations and NPCs that are involved in the arc, providing you with a "hub" for everything pertaining to the arc. Since the Storyline references everything it needs, you can just keep it open in a tab and open links in a new tab. If you are viewing content referenced by the Storyline, you are also only two clicks away from anything else referenced, since one click will take you to the linked Storyline and another to whatever you're seeking. If you use the Content Links list in the Transitions Pane at the right for this, the links are all summarized conveniently for you.

Hope this helps!

P.S. The post that @pjrichert just made is an excellent example of exactly this approach! I got ninja'd!
Click to expand...

That's two suggestions that I look at the storyboards again. I am opening RW up and giving it another look right now. I'll let you know how it goes :)
 
meek75 said:
That's two suggestions that I look at the storyboards again. I am opening RW up and giving it another look right now. I'll let you know how it goes :)
Click to expand...

My suggestion centered on using TOPICS based on the "Storyline" category, while the alternate suggestion used Plots within the Storyboard. Both work equally for the same general purpose, which is why I cited it as an example of what I was outlining. I apologize for not drawing that important distinction above.

I can understand if you don't like the way plots work. They definitely aren't YET as powerful and flexible as other tools that are specifically designed for that one purpose. However, if you keep your plots reasonably small and use sub-plots instead of complex plots, they work pretty well.

The use of a Storyline TOPIC provides much of the same benefits as plots, with the notable exception of the visual element. It provides you with a navigation "hub" for a story arc, and it's ideal for users who either prefer topics in general (the non-visual types) or who find the current support for plots insufficient for their needs (as a fallback solution).

Hope this helps!
 
Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. I did misunderstand you. I fit into the "visual" category I think, but I will take a look at the topics again for use as you suggest. I have been playing around with storyboards again though and am seeing some potential. I still would like to see a lot more functionality than is currently there, but I think I see what pjrichert is getting at in his post. My adventure is somewhat location based, so I created a storyboard that had all the villages locations in it. For each location I created a "Subplot" that showed all the plot lines it connected to. By creating a few levels of "subplot" I was able to create a pretty functional navigation hub to use. I think this will work much better when I next run the game. Being visual, I would love it if some of you would post some screen shots of how you organize with either topics or storyboards. I will post some of my own tomorrow. I am getting ready to leave my computer for the day :) Thanks for all the great advice.
 
meek75 said:
Thanks for the advice. I will play with the storyboard a bit more. I haven't used it as you suggest for a couple of reasons. I do, generally, love flow charts for game prep. However, my initial experience with RW flow chart tool was very disappointing. There are some really good free flowchart creators out there that far exceed RW abilities. Not being able to manually pull pieces of the flowchart around was a HUGE issue. The automatic placement of RW kept messing things up and looping things around in ways I didn't want. When the chart got even moderately large it really seemed to break down. Now, perhaps I gave up to soon on that feature. Have you used this method in a game session and found it helpful? My other big complaint was that the descriptions I put in my plot line don't auto-link and I am limited to one connection per element. I found that very limiting and frustrating. I am hoping that the story boards improve as RW get upgraded, but as they stand now I judged them very poor. However, if they work for you I'll go give them another chance. I have been known to throw the baby out with the bathwater on occasion.
Click to expand...

You might try using it so you have a number of storyboards. The first one is just a skeleton giving a really rough idea of where the party may go. Make each step in that storyboard link to another, so when you click on it, it'll open up a more specific storyboard that details just that step. You can keep "drilling down" to more and more granular levels, depending on how detailed you want to get. That approach works pretty well for me.

Also, at some point in the storyboard for each more detailed level, I'll have the link back to the broader level. So I may have the Duke ask the players to do something with 3-4 choices. Rather than trying to put all those paths on the one storyboard, I'll do something like having a link from "work for the Duke to find stolen goods" to the sub-storyboard that shows all the steps in that quest. Then at the end of the sub-board, I'll set a link that takes me back to the main storyboard to follow it to whatever direction they choose to go.

It makes for a lot more boards, but if you link them to and from the adventures it keeps it pretty orgainized, and the main board stays fairly neat, without a whole lot of spaghetti mess to follow.

If you follow shows like Burn Notice, Justified, or even Buffy the Vampire Slayer, you can see kind of how my mindset works. A "season" will have an overall arc, ie Burn Notice season 1 - figure out who burned Michael. That would be the main storyboard with the steps needed to figure it out. Each of those steps would be an episode of the show, in the case of Burn Notice, all the stuff that Michael and Crew do to help out others in need, while still working toward figuring out the "season" arc. Each Episode, which is a step in the "Season" arc gets its own storyboard, you could continue to go further with each event in each episode getting its own storyboard, depending on how many levels you want to get to. The episode then has some nugget in it that helps with the overall arc, Michael gets a file that gives him the identity of someone who helped burn him. That step in the "Episode" storyboard links back to the "Season" Storyboard, and you can follow those paths to whatever step the PCs take next.

Hope that helps :D
 
This is still a work in progress, but here is where I'm heading.

The main plot hub is location based: http://screencast.com/t/EvadjBlYiL

Then each location links to the plot(s) discovered in that location. Here is an example of the linked storyboard for the Healer's Hut: http://screencast.com/t/WPcdGhtdGzzD

Some of the plots get fairly complected, but this gives me a way of jumping to the appropriate links. I think there is potential for the storyboards to become very powerful as RW grows.
 
I have spent some time continuing to think about organization for my game. I think I am beginning to see how I can use a combination of the storyboard organization pjrichert suggested and the topic organization rob suggested. Again, screen shots are the easiest way to show what I mean. I tend to create the storyboard and topic entries simultaneously as I go. Shot one is the location based story hub for the village of Bocsa. For my adventure loccations make a great way to organize. Most of the plotlines are tied to either a location or an NPC that is tied to a loaction. This won't work in all adventure designs, but its working in this one. Then each location links to a subplot that gives details for the plot. Shot two is an example of a plot line. This one is very simple, but I think it gives you the general idea. Then I link each part of the plots storyboard to a story topic that gives the details. Shot three is a shot of my topics for the current adventure I am building. It still has a long way to go before completion, but, again, gives you the idea.

Shot One: http://screencast.com/t/EkxUrMLrYEK

Shot Two: http://screencast.com/t/BnjZfFimBje

Shot Three: http://screencast.com/t/ceXKses3a
 
Meek,

Glad that seems to work for you :D. I do the same thing. Start writing out the plot in the storyboards, and then create my topics etc as I go along. Using links helps in not having to click tab to tab. I just wish they would let you link back to the storyboard item. Then you'd only need to click once, no matter where you were taken.
 
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