organize similar kinds of topics

[ruhar]

When I started using RW I didn't know about containers (I tend to jump in and not read directions unless I have major problems) so the topics I created stayed in their categories. At Gen Con last year Rob showed me how to do containers. Of course I was even more impressed with the program. The top level containers stayed in their categories which was fine with me. I could click easily on the category to make a new topic if it was the same category. I also had the prefix before the name and sorted by prefix.

With this latest update if I select to organize similar kinds of topics the top level containers stay in their category but the contents do not sort by prefix. They sort by similar kind then by topic. Is this a bug or something I have to get use to?

If it's permanent there are some major problems with this. To have everything sorted by prefix I have to uncheck organize similar kinds of topics but I can't collapse anything. This means that when I need to open a specific topic that is toward the bottom of a LOOOONG list I'm not very happy doing this over and over. And I DO NOT want to click on each handle to collapse each individual container.

So I'm hoping this is a bug and will be fixed with the next update. If it's not I am going to be very grumpy while using the program until you finally realize that we need to be able to have contents stay collapsed, preferably with just the ones we want open, whenever we start the program and whenever we create a new tab.

 

[Parody]

Hmm...I'm sure we had a good conversation about this in the past, but I can't find it. In any case it's been around for a long time.

 

[ruhar]

Hmm...I'm sure we had a good conversation about this in the past, but I can't find it. In any case it's been around for a long time.

I couldn't find anything about it either. Are you sure the way it's organizing has been around for awhile because I really don't remember container contents organizing by topic before prefix or title before last night (I haven't had a chance to work on my stuff since the latest updates).

 

[Parody]

I remember people complaining about Realm Works not sorting properly when you turn off Organize Similar Kinds Of Topic/Article, but my memory of it is vague and I can't find references so I'm probably way off the mark somewhere. Sorry about that. :(

 

[ruhar]

This is not working. I have tried clicking off and on the different options and there are no configurations that will show one specific container with the topics in the correct order by prefix. The order RW puts it in is: E 2-1, E 2-1B, E 2-2, E 3A, E 4A, E 5, E 1, E 4B. "E 1" is suppose to be the first topic and "E 4B" should come before "E 5" instead of at the end but they are actually grouped in similar topic. I have tried retyping the prefix in case I had an extra space or something and it didn't work. Any ideas?

 

[AEIOU]

Put a zero in front of single digits and perhaps dump the space? E01, E02-1, E02-1B....

 

[ruhar]

Put a zero in front of single digits and perhaps dump the space? E01, E02-1, E02-1B....

Good suggestion but neither deleting the space nor replacing the space with a zero made it sort correctly.

I am only using 1-5 so it wouldn't matter if I kept the space, removed it or replaced it with a zero.

 

[Vargr]

Depending on the sorting algorithm non-alphanumeric signs might come before nothing.

So maybe:
E01-00
E02-10
E02-1B
E02-20
E02-3A
E02-4A

Or however it is you want to sort it - honestly, I am confused about your sorting...

 

[Parody]

Interesting. The worst I can make it do while set to "Sort Topics/By Prefix" is put the "E 2-(whatever)s" in front of "E 2", which is a sort failure to me. (Shorter terms should sort before longer ones that start the same.) It's inconsistent: "E 2-1B" sorts before "E 2" sorts before "E 2+1B"; "E 3" sorts before "E 3A". Weird.

In any case, if you have it set to "Sort Topics/Alphabetically" while also having "Show Prefix Before Name When Available" it looks completely wrong but sorts correctly. (Even "Incident 02" and "Incident 02-A" sorted properly.)

Here's my (hastily thrown together) sample data:

 

[ruhar]

I know my sorting is a little weird and there was a method to the madness. lol As I looked at it I realized that the "E #" could be containers for the "E #-X" so I did that. I even removed or simplified the prefix of the ones going into the containers. However, it did not fix "E 1". It still goes to the bottom as if it's being sorted by similar types kinds of topics. I did send a bug notice last night after changing things didn't make a difference. Here is what I have now:

 

[Vargr]

@ruhar:

Could your "E 1" be sorted last because it is a different category?

So RW sorts it thusly:

First: Category
Second: Prefix (if choosen), or
Alphabetically (if choosen)

Thus category

Further information comes before

Incident.

It might explain it.

 

[ruhar]

@ruhar:

Could your "E 1" be sorted last because it is a different category?

That's what I think it's doing and it shouldn't do that. You can select "Organize Similar Kinds of Topic" but I don't have that selected. I do have "Sort Topics by Prefix" selected and the prefix is suppose to show before the title. In my mind that means that everything would be sorted first by prefix then by title.

 

[Vargr]

I agree, I wouldn't expect it to sort by category before prefix.

Maybe one of LW hardworking developers can enlighten us.

 

[ThatOneMike]

I'm trying to understand what you're doing, because I do not have this problem, and I believe my sorting works just like you're describing you want.

I organize my topics by similar kind, and I place things in containers. I then use map legends for my prefix, and sort by prefix. I get the attached. Are you trying to do something different?

 

[ruhar]

I'm trying to understand what you're doing, because I do not have this problem, and I believe my sorting works just like you're describing you want.

I organize my topics by similar kind, and I place things in containers. I then use map legends for my prefix, and sort by prefix. I get the attached. Are you trying to do something different?

ThatOneMike, I am not organizing by similar kinds of topic. I have selected "Show Containing Topic Hierarchy" because I want to see everything in their containers. I have "Show Prefix Before Name When Available" selected because if a topic needs to be in a specific order then I use a prefix. And I "Sort Topics By Prefix" selected so anything that has a prefix is sorted. That is all that I have selected.

If you look at just the "E #" on my list they are numbered E 1-5. Topics "E 1-4" are the same type and topic "E 1" is different. Topic "E 1" is at the bottom after topic "E 4" instead of at the top.

That means it's organizing by topic, then by prefix, then by title. That's not what I have selected. Now do you get it ThatOneMike?

 

[ThatOneMike]

I do see one strange behavior when I uncheck Organize by Similar Kinds of Topics: it still sorts by

Topic Kind | Alphabetical

instead of just alphabetical, as you might expect with one combined list. Seems like there might be a bug there.

However, going to your original post, you simply wanted things within containers sorted by prefix. I am able to achieve this behavior with my previous post. I tested with "Organize by Similar..." as well, to the same effect. So perhaps something else is going on with your database.

 

[ruhar]

Thanks ThatOneMike. Maybe I have something checked or unchecked that shouldn't be. It happened in another container I just created so I sent screen shots and a full description to the support team. Hopefully I'll hear soon if it's me or the program. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[AEIOU]

Someday, an Excel-like build-a-sort functionality (or even something pivot-table-like if LWD wants to go crazy with it) where we can determine what order sorts should happen (or data be displayed) and whether they are A-Z or Z-A would be nice. That way we could create more useful groupings.

I must admit that I currently like my cities sorted together and my terrain sorted together. But like others, it's not how I would have expected it to work. I'm happy with it but it isn't intuitive.

 

[ruhar]

Someday, an Excel-like build-a-sort functionality (or even something pivot-table-like if LWD wants to go crazy with it) where we can determine what order sorts should happen (or data be displayed) and whether they are A-Z or Z-A would be nice. That way we could create more useful groupings.

I must admit that I currently like my cities sorted together and my terrain sorted together. But like others, it's not how I would have expected it to work. I'm happy with it but it isn't intuitive.

That would be ideal and maybe in time. Since they're breaking new ground we'll give them some time...couple of months at least. lol

 

[ruhar]

I want to update anyone still interested in this issue or has the same issue in the future. David from LW looked at my realm and found that it was a combination of a bug (now fixed) and something I was doing wrong. Here is what he sent me:

There are actually two issues at play with the sorting with one a bug and the other intentional.

First the bug: When you view topics without organizing by similar kinds of topics, we still end up sorting the top-most level by the similar kinds of topics so the top-most grouping can end up in the wrong order. We'll fix this for the next release.

The other issue where you see the subtopics sorting strangely is intentional design. Topics of the "Further Information" category has a special property of being sorted ahead of other topics and thus you see your three topics of this category showing up before the other topics. The solution would be for you to move these topics to another category. If you happen to like the "Further Information" structure, you can look at duplicating the category within the "Manage/Categories" screen and then moving the topics to that new category. You can easily move all topics of the "Further Information" category to another category also within the "Manage/Categories" screen.

For your reference, here is information from the release notes when we added the "Further Information" category:

• The “Further Information” category has been added to allow large topics to be broken up into smaller chunks. You can create one or more Further Information topics to hold portions of material for a lengthy topic and make that topic their container. All Further Information topics will always be sorted before topics of any other category when viewed as a hierarchy. This allows supplemental information to be kept in immediate proximity to the appropriate topic, even when lots of other topics may also be contained. More details about this category will be added to the “Tips & Tricks” document in the near future.​

Thank you David for your help.