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- The Lone Wolf Development Team
One More Question...
- Thread starter Pollution
- Start date
At 10:30 AM 4/18/2008, you wrote:
So you need to be BOTH Daeva AND Lancea Sanctum to possess teh Bloodline? Hmmm. That's not currently doable. For now, the easiest solution is to add a simple validation rule to the Mortifier bloodline that reports an error when the character is NOT a member of LS. If you want me to write it for you as an example, I'll be happy to do so. I have to be at the airport in a few hours, though, so I don't have time to do it in this post.
Yeah, the current thinking (interpretation of the rules, that is) is that when you see a bloodline in a covenant book, you pretty much have to be in that covenant to be that bloodline. So Mortifiers of the Flesh are ONLY LS, seeing as how you can't be OD for very long with a Jesus penitence fetish, lol! So from my experience, you HAVE to be part of the covenant to be that bloodline, unless it states otherwise (the 3 bloodline books say "Covenant: Prefers X, Y, Z, Rarely W, and NEVER Q" for example)
If you could get around to writing that up for me, I'd be EVER so grateful. My current solution is to require that they have a dot of Covenant Status for the DISIPLINE to be added, that tells me straight off that there's an issue if the discipline won't go in (and in my game, everyone in a covenant gets a free covenant status 1 rating once they're confirmed that covenant). I can maybe see in the in game aspect having it be, "Yes, you joined the LS, and yes, you are a Daeva, so you are able to be that Bloodline, but there's no way they're going to teach you how to focus your powers for that bloodline until you get some kind of trust from them" (reflected by the Covenant status Merit).
So I'm hoping that if you can show me how, I can make it so not only do they have to be X covenant to be that bloodline, but also that they have to be X Bloodline to learn that discipline. I know, 2 different validation rules, but it would add alot to the game engine you've created.
And again, thanks for helping me with all my questions. You're the best!
If you could get around to writing that up for me, I'd be EVER so grateful. My current solution is to require that they have a dot of Covenant Status for the DISIPLINE to be added, that tells me straight off that there's an issue if the discipline won't go in (and in my game, everyone in a covenant gets a free covenant status 1 rating once they're confirmed that covenant). I can maybe see in the in game aspect having it be, "Yes, you joined the LS, and yes, you are a Daeva, so you are able to be that Bloodline, but there's no way they're going to teach you how to focus your powers for that bloodline until you get some kind of trust from them" (reflected by the Covenant status Merit).
So I'm hoping that if you can show me how, I can make it so not only do they have to be X covenant to be that bloodline, but also that they have to be X Bloodline to learn that discipline. I know, 2 different validation rules, but it would add alot to the game engine you've created.
And again, thanks for helping me with all my questions. You're the best!
Quoting Pollution <isaacpage2006@gmail.com>:
> Yeah, the current thinking (interpretation of the rules, that is) is
> that when you see a bloodline in a covenant book, you pretty much
> have to be in that covenant to be that bloodline.
Now that you explain it, I guess it does make sense to treat it as a
pre-requisite. Not an explicit one, but definitely and implicit one.
> If you could get around to writing that up for me, I'd be EVER so grateful.
Checking whether a character is a member of Covenant X is quite
simple. When a covenant is selected, the character is assigned a
corresponding tag. You can check this by using a debug info window. Go
to the View menu, select Floating Info Windows, and then Show
Character Tags. For example, if the character is a member of Lancea
Sanctum, you'll see a Covenant.Lancea tag on the character.
So the prereq simply needs to check the presence of this tag on the
character. The script would be assigned to the bloodline thing within
the editor and consist of the following three lines:
if (hero.tagis[Covenant.Lancea] > 0) then
@valid = 1
endif
If you have a bloodline that is dependent on Ordo Dracul, the only
difference in the script would be the tag you check for. It would
instead be "Covenant.Dracul".
> So I'm hoping that if you can show me how, I can make it so not only
> do they have to be X covenant to be that bloodline, but also that
> they have to be X Bloodline to learn that discipline.
The same basic approach can be used for checking that a discipline is
only taken by a character with the appropriate bloodline. Whenever a
bloodline is selected for a character, the corresponding tag is
assigned to the character. For example, if you pick Toreador as a
bloodline, you can check the character tags and see the tag
"Bloodline.bToreador". You would simply check for this tag as a prereq
for the bloodline. The resulting code would look like the following:
if (hero.tagis[Bloodline.bToreador> 0) then
@valid = 1
endif
That should give you solutions for all the stuff you asked about. Let
me know if you run into more questions and I'll do my best to answer
them. Please realize that I'm at a tradeshow, so my response time will
be seriously impacted over the next few days.
-Rob
---------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolfliar.com)
Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com
408-927-9880
> Yeah, the current thinking (interpretation of the rules, that is) is
> that when you see a bloodline in a covenant book, you pretty much
> have to be in that covenant to be that bloodline.
Now that you explain it, I guess it does make sense to treat it as a
pre-requisite. Not an explicit one, but definitely and implicit one.
> If you could get around to writing that up for me, I'd be EVER so grateful.
Checking whether a character is a member of Covenant X is quite
simple. When a covenant is selected, the character is assigned a
corresponding tag. You can check this by using a debug info window. Go
to the View menu, select Floating Info Windows, and then Show
Character Tags. For example, if the character is a member of Lancea
Sanctum, you'll see a Covenant.Lancea tag on the character.
So the prereq simply needs to check the presence of this tag on the
character. The script would be assigned to the bloodline thing within
the editor and consist of the following three lines:
if (hero.tagis[Covenant.Lancea] > 0) then
@valid = 1
endif
If you have a bloodline that is dependent on Ordo Dracul, the only
difference in the script would be the tag you check for. It would
instead be "Covenant.Dracul".
> So I'm hoping that if you can show me how, I can make it so not only
> do they have to be X covenant to be that bloodline, but also that
> they have to be X Bloodline to learn that discipline.
The same basic approach can be used for checking that a discipline is
only taken by a character with the appropriate bloodline. Whenever a
bloodline is selected for a character, the corresponding tag is
assigned to the character. For example, if you pick Toreador as a
bloodline, you can check the character tags and see the tag
"Bloodline.bToreador". You would simply check for this tag as a prereq
for the bloodline. The resulting code would look like the following:
if (hero.tagis[Bloodline.bToreador> 0) then
@valid = 1
endif
That should give you solutions for all the stuff you asked about. Let
me know if you run into more questions and I'll do my best to answer
them. Please realize that I'm at a tradeshow, so my response time will
be seriously impacted over the next few days.
-Rob
---------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolfliar.com)
Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com
408-927-9880
Rob, your response time is phenominal!
I had no idea that you could check tags via a debug window, that's going to be an excellent tool for my custonization needs, thanks for pointing that out!
The code seems to do perfect for my needs, thank you so much!
I've been wary of messing around with the tags, or figuring out how they work for fear of running into a TON of errors that would take me hours to debug out rather than just putting things in basic so that I'd have to remember, "oh, yeah, Mortifiers are a LS bloodline!" which will save me some errors later. I did get into them a little when I added the other coils from the OD book (locust, ladder, soul, the tier 4's). It took me ages to figure out that I had to MAKE a tag (and where to make it) to do the check for "Must have Coil of the Soul 1 to buy level 2". Once I figured that out, it was a cinch.
I have to say, after doing customization stuff for 6 hours or so in total, I've come to the conclusion that this program is VERY well coded. The repeating tasks you have to do (make a discipline, make levels, make weaknesses, assign all that stuff, make bloodline, assign disciplines, ect.) might seem like a waste of time, or even a little too much, but I can see WHY it's done like that. And once I figured out the why, my logic shifted to "yes, this is NEEDED to be done" not, "I wish I didn't have to do this."
I was working for a while on a Grapevine LARP utility replacement database using Access before I picked this up. It's interesting to me that you've managed to circumvent ALOT of the issues I was having with your program. I would have never thought to do it the way you have, and had in fact decided to go the other route (less checks, less prerequisites, ect...) due to difficulties mapping out the MASSIVE amount of "stuff" that's available in the game, and how to integrate them. Heck, I'd had issues figuring out how to assign Merits to be more or less unlimited, but still able to track who's got what. I'm not a programmer by nature, just neccessity, and you're program has opened ALOT of doors for what I want to do with my game.
Again, massive thanks!
I had no idea that you could check tags via a debug window, that's going to be an excellent tool for my custonization needs, thanks for pointing that out!
The code seems to do perfect for my needs, thank you so much!
I've been wary of messing around with the tags, or figuring out how they work for fear of running into a TON of errors that would take me hours to debug out rather than just putting things in basic so that I'd have to remember, "oh, yeah, Mortifiers are a LS bloodline!" which will save me some errors later. I did get into them a little when I added the other coils from the OD book (locust, ladder, soul, the tier 4's). It took me ages to figure out that I had to MAKE a tag (and where to make it) to do the check for "Must have Coil of the Soul 1 to buy level 2". Once I figured that out, it was a cinch.
I have to say, after doing customization stuff for 6 hours or so in total, I've come to the conclusion that this program is VERY well coded. The repeating tasks you have to do (make a discipline, make levels, make weaknesses, assign all that stuff, make bloodline, assign disciplines, ect.) might seem like a waste of time, or even a little too much, but I can see WHY it's done like that. And once I figured out the why, my logic shifted to "yes, this is NEEDED to be done" not, "I wish I didn't have to do this."
I was working for a while on a Grapevine LARP utility replacement database using Access before I picked this up. It's interesting to me that you've managed to circumvent ALOT of the issues I was having with your program. I would have never thought to do it the way you have, and had in fact decided to go the other route (less checks, less prerequisites, ect...) due to difficulties mapping out the MASSIVE amount of "stuff" that's available in the game, and how to integrate them. Heck, I'd had issues figuring out how to assign Merits to be more or less unlimited, but still able to track who's got what. I'm not a programmer by nature, just neccessity, and you're program has opened ALOT of doors for what I want to do with my game.
Again, massive thanks!
At 04:26 AM 4/22/2008, you wrote:
If you could give me a list of things that were most confusing and/or not clearly documented, I would greatly appreciate it. That way, I can get that stuff addressed in the docs next time around.
Oh, and once you get things working the way you want them, it would be wonderful if you shared your experiences with other gamers on other forums. Being a tiny company, we rely heavily on word-of-mouth recommendations from our users, so any help in that regard would be much appreciated.
You can also check the tags and field values on individual items for a character. Those can also be extremely helpful when trying to figure out why something isn't working.
Yeah! :->
Please don't hesitate to ask questions here. I'll do my best to answer them. It also helps me to know where the docs need to be improved so that other folks don't have to ask questions in the future.
If you could give me a list of things that were most confusing and/or not clearly documented, I would greatly appreciate it. That way, I can get that stuff addressed in the docs next time around.
That's great to hear. The goal is to have lots of small, bite-size pieces that can be hooked up incrementally by a user AND that can be re-used for different purposes. The WoD system doesn't employ a lot of re-use (e.g. discipline levels are tied to a single discipline), but other games system feature extensive re-use, so the architecture lets us support the entire spectrum of RPGs.
Excellent! If there are things we're not doing that you think would be helpful or features present in other tools that we don't yet have, please point them out. HL is constantly evolving, and users such as yourself are the primary driving force behind the direction that evolution goes in.
Oh, and once you get things working the way you want them, it would be wonderful if you shared your experiences with other gamers on other forums. Being a tiny company, we rely heavily on word-of-mouth recommendations from our users, so any help in that regard would be much appreciated.
Well, it's week 2 of my customization project and here's where I stand:
EVERY discipline has been inputted into the software from all the Requiem books.
EVERY Merit has been inputted into the software from all the requiem books (and a few WoD ones) (and at 100% complete)
EVERY bloodline has been inputted.
EVERY Ritual/Coil/Oath has been inputted (btw, Oaths work best as Devotions due to their varying XP costs)
EVERY devotion has been inputted.
Here's what I STILL need to do:
Disciplines need to be "clan or bloodline specific" checked. Most are, but some escaped. Also, rolls assigned (i.e. Int + Occult)
Devotions need to be "Clan/bloodine specific" checked, XP costs inputted, rolls assigned. Covenant specific ones are done.
Weaknesses for bloodlines need to be inserted and assigned.
Devotions need XP costs (and rolls if applicable).
Other than that, I'm getting there. I figure another 2 weeks or so and I'll be at 100% ready to go. This will take my data file to Ventrue: Lords Over the Damned source book. That'll make my life WAY easier come next source book to input.
Here's what I've run into as far as problems:
MAKE SURE YOU NAME YOUR THING APPROPRIATELY! It may seem like a good idea to name something dXYZ (xyz being the first 3 letters in the discipline) but it's not. Make the Thing ID something that makes sense, or looks familiar. example, Devotion Eyes of the Dragon from the OD book should be dEoD or dEoDragon or something similarly easy to remember. Then the discipline level entry should be the same, but dx instead of d. i.e. dxEoD or dxEoDragon or whatever.
CHECK TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE NOT COVERING THINGS ALREADY IN THERE! I put all the merits from armory before I figured out that they're already there. DOH!
DO THINGS IN A LOGICAL ORDER! It's faster to put in a skeleton of what you're inputting, but it WILL cost you time in the long run. Put in a Merit and finish it's prereqs, then move on. If you're doing Carthian merits, don't put them all in then edit them later. You WILL pay for that in time spent coding. Make the merit, make the prereqs (i.e. int 2, Occult 2, Carthian only) code then when you're done, look at the next merit you're doing and COPY the old one and edit where you need to. It's easier to replace intelligence for dexterity if you're only changing one word in 2 places than to type out the entire damned code over and over again. It seems like you'd want to do that anyway, but you'd be surprised at how dumb I was at first.
DO ONE BOOK AT A TIME! I made the mistake of using a Camarilla resource sheet that lists all the bloodlines and all the merits and all the blah and put those things in all at once into the db. Then I tried to go back and fill in the spaces. Thats costing me alot of time. I wish I'd just started With the OD book, then the LS book, then the Crone book, then ect... That way, I'd have a clear understanding of where I was at all times. You can get lost VERY easily if you try to do too much at once. Don't do this, EVER.
Coding. DO YOUR CODING if you plan to use this for any massive game (i.e. a 50-100 person larp). If you don't do your coding, you WILL regret it. It's VERY handy to have big red letters going, "OY! THIS GUY'S NOT A GANGREL! HE CAN'T BE MOROI!!!" so that you don't run into problems later. You may wish you weren't doing it as you're doing it, but you will be glad you did during check in or something when people are trying to buy things they shouldn't be able to buy.
That's about all the suggestions I could think off just now. I can't think of documentation issues that caused me too much problems except for spending 20 min working out this check script for Carthian Pull Merit:
That's mainly math stuff, and I'm sure that I can figure out the last bit when I want to come back to it later. I'm thinking it's pretty easy to adjust the Status = #merit line to the ACTUAL tag. But I'm not down for looking at that just yet. I've given myself 1 month to finish this DB, and I think I'll do it. Once that's done, I'll go back through and make sure everything's 100% legit for my own personal uses.
The remaining questions I have, I'll post separately, this is pretty long as it is.
Again, thanks so much. I'm also telling my players to buy this program and then I'll send them the data files I'm making for their own home use for MY game. Since my game is running a bit differently than others are.
EVERY discipline has been inputted into the software from all the Requiem books.
EVERY Merit has been inputted into the software from all the requiem books (and a few WoD ones) (and at 100% complete)
EVERY bloodline has been inputted.
EVERY Ritual/Coil/Oath has been inputted (btw, Oaths work best as Devotions due to their varying XP costs)
EVERY devotion has been inputted.
Here's what I STILL need to do:
Disciplines need to be "clan or bloodline specific" checked. Most are, but some escaped. Also, rolls assigned (i.e. Int + Occult)
Devotions need to be "Clan/bloodine specific" checked, XP costs inputted, rolls assigned. Covenant specific ones are done.
Weaknesses for bloodlines need to be inserted and assigned.
Devotions need XP costs (and rolls if applicable).
Other than that, I'm getting there. I figure another 2 weeks or so and I'll be at 100% ready to go. This will take my data file to Ventrue: Lords Over the Damned source book. That'll make my life WAY easier come next source book to input.
Here's what I've run into as far as problems:
MAKE SURE YOU NAME YOUR THING APPROPRIATELY! It may seem like a good idea to name something dXYZ (xyz being the first 3 letters in the discipline) but it's not. Make the Thing ID something that makes sense, or looks familiar. example, Devotion Eyes of the Dragon from the OD book should be dEoD or dEoDragon or something similarly easy to remember. Then the discipline level entry should be the same, but dx instead of d. i.e. dxEoD or dxEoDragon or whatever.
CHECK TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE NOT COVERING THINGS ALREADY IN THERE! I put all the merits from armory before I figured out that they're already there. DOH!
DO THINGS IN A LOGICAL ORDER! It's faster to put in a skeleton of what you're inputting, but it WILL cost you time in the long run. Put in a Merit and finish it's prereqs, then move on. If you're doing Carthian merits, don't put them all in then edit them later. You WILL pay for that in time spent coding. Make the merit, make the prereqs (i.e. int 2, Occult 2, Carthian only) code then when you're done, look at the next merit you're doing and COPY the old one and edit where you need to. It's easier to replace intelligence for dexterity if you're only changing one word in 2 places than to type out the entire damned code over and over again. It seems like you'd want to do that anyway, but you'd be surprised at how dumb I was at first.
DO ONE BOOK AT A TIME! I made the mistake of using a Camarilla resource sheet that lists all the bloodlines and all the merits and all the blah and put those things in all at once into the db. Then I tried to go back and fill in the spaces. Thats costing me alot of time. I wish I'd just started With the OD book, then the LS book, then the Crone book, then ect... That way, I'd have a clear understanding of where I was at all times. You can get lost VERY easily if you try to do too much at once. Don't do this, EVER.
Coding. DO YOUR CODING if you plan to use this for any massive game (i.e. a 50-100 person larp). If you don't do your coding, you WILL regret it. It's VERY handy to have big red letters going, "OY! THIS GUY'S NOT A GANGREL! HE CAN'T BE MOROI!!!" so that you don't run into problems later. You may wish you weren't doing it as you're doing it, but you will be glad you did during check in or something when people are trying to buy things they shouldn't be able to buy.
That's about all the suggestions I could think off just now. I can't think of documentation issues that caused me too much problems except for spending 20 min working out this check script for Carthian Pull Merit:
That's mainly math stuff, and I'm sure that I can figure out the last bit when I want to come back to it later. I'm thinking it's pretty easy to adjust the Status = #merit line to the ACTUAL tag. But I'm not down for looking at that just yet. I've given myself 1 month to finish this DB, and I think I'll do it. Once that's done, I'll go back through and make sure everything's 100% legit for my own personal uses.
The remaining questions I have, I'll post separately, this is pretty long as it is.
Again, thanks so much. I'm also telling my players to buy this program and then I'll send them the data files I'm making for their own home use for MY game. Since my game is running a bit differently than others are.
At 05:26 AM 4/28/2008, you wrote:
With regards to your "one book at a time" suggestion, you might even find it beneficial to put all the material for a given book into its own, separate data file. That way, if someone only plays with books X and Y, they can simply drop those two data files in, skipping the others. Then only the material from books X and Y will appear. It will also make the data files easier to augment in the future when we officially document a new "sources" mechanism that has been added to HL. Basically, the mechanism allows you to tie material to separate books that can then be toggled on/off by the user. This makes it easy to have characters for 3 different games that each use different sets of supplement material.
Man, you've covered a LOT of ground. That's awesome!
Those are all excellent points. I'll be sure to incorporate them into the Kit docs when those get finished up.
With regards to your "one book at a time" suggestion, you might even find it beneficial to put all the material for a given book into its own, separate data file. That way, if someone only plays with books X and Y, they can simply drop those two data files in, skipping the others. Then only the material from books X and Y will appear. It will also make the data files easier to augment in the future when we officially document a new "sources" mechanism that has been added to HL. Basically, the mechanism allows you to tie material to separate books that can then be toggled on/off by the user. This makes it easy to have characters for 3 different games that each use different sets of supplement material.
User Files Available?
First of all....wow, what an amazing application. Well-done and thanks for all the hard work.
Obviously, I've been wondering what to do about all of the extra content in the supplements. Before I fired up the Editor and put them all in myself, I wanted to check to see if anyone else had done it. Also, if it was in the public domain (don't want to get anyone in trouble), and if so, how best to share the work.
Sounds like you've done a huge amount of work already on exactly what I'm looking for. Could you share the .user files, or make them available as part of the HR User Projects er, project hosted by Cheese Weasel?
Again, great work, and many thanks!
Alexander.
First of all....wow, what an amazing application. Well-done and thanks for all the hard work.
Obviously, I've been wondering what to do about all of the extra content in the supplements. Before I fired up the Editor and put them all in myself, I wanted to check to see if anyone else had done it. Also, if it was in the public domain (don't want to get anyone in trouble), and if so, how best to share the work.
Sounds like you've done a huge amount of work already on exactly what I'm looking for. Could you share the .user files, or make them available as part of the HR User Projects er, project hosted by Cheese Weasel?
Again, great work, and many thanks!
Alexander.
karpomatic
Well-known member
I second this. Share the wealth!