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Ninjas get the new hornbow? Why?

O

outshyn

New member
Hornbow from Adventurers Armory 2 (I think). Exotic weapon. Create ninja, add hornbow, watch as it gives it to you with no non-proficiency penalty. No exotic weapon feat needed. Is there something in the rules for this? I know its description mentions it can have the same things a shortbow can, but that doesn't mean people who have training in a shortbow have training in the hornbow! It just means for example that a hornbow can be made of dark wood, like a shortbow can, other effects like flaming would be fine to apply, and feats like Rapid Shot work with it too.

Ninjas (and presumably bards) should not suddenly be proficient with a super bow that is an exotic weapon, without any exotic weapon feat.
 
ShadowChemosh said:
Answer is right in the description.

"Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows."
Click to expand...

I think what the creators are saying is, the weapon is "technically" exotic, but isn't really different enough from other bows as to warrant its own proficiency, unless the class is not proficient with bows, in which case it counts as an exotic weapon for purposes of feats.
 
"effect" != "weapon proficiency"

EDIT: the author of the weapon explains her wording here -- the short version is that she worded it that way so that we would know that things like special alchemical arrows that work with longbows & shortbows also work with the hornbow. Note in her reply she twice mentions that it's an exotic weapon, so I think it's safe to assume that she intended that exotic designation to matter.
 
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outshyn said:
"effect" != "weapon proficiency"
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Don't agree at all with this statement. When a bow references that it works like other types of bows in Pathfinder it has always meant proficiency. What other "effect" could they be talking about?

outshyn said:
EDIT: the author of the weapon explains her wording here -- the short version is that she worded it that way so that we would know that things like special alchemical arrows that work with longbows & shortbows also work with the hornbow. Note in her reply she twice mentions that it's an exotic weapon, so I think it's safe to assume that she intended that exotic designation to matter.
Click to expand...
This is info from the author is only useful in understanding what they "wanted" but not in actually understanding Paizo's official rule. An Author is NOT a reliable source of information because a Paizo developer has the final say on the rules and very often changes the "intent" of a authors work.

All your getting here are thoughts from other people on the forums. The wording to me is pretty clear that if you are proficient with a Longbow/Shortbow you are also proficient with a hornbow.

But like all things PUT IN A BUG REPORT if you want to talk to LW about the issue. A forum post is NOT A BUG REPORT!!!!!!!

Also of course if your group does not agree you can use the editor to make any changes you wish. :)
 
ShadowChemosh said:
Don't agree at all with this statement. When a bow references that it works like other types of bows in Pathfinder it has always meant proficiency. What other "effect" could they be talking about?


This is info from the author is only useful in understanding what they "wanted" but not in actually understanding Paizo's official rule. An Author is NOT a reliable source of information because a Paizo developer has the final say on the rules and very often changes the "intent" of a authors work.

All your getting here are thoughts from other people on the forums. The wording to me is pretty clear that if you are proficient with a Longbow/Shortbow you are also proficient with a hornbow.

But like all things PUT IN A BUG REPORT if you want to talk to LW about the issue. A forum post is NOT A BUG REPORT!!!!!!!

Also of course if your group does not agree you can use the editor to make any changes you wish. :)
Click to expand...

You can also ask on the official Paizo forums for a rules clarification.
 
FAQ opened up on Paizo's forums for this. Mark Moreland is response #50 at the bottom. On page 2 it gets pretty savage as Mark suggests that the text doesn't even mean Rapid Shot or other bow-like feats apply; it only applies to items you carry that have a effect on the bow. I hope the official FAQ isn't that harsh, but at least now I am confident that this was never, ever intended to confer free usage to bards, ninjas, and so on (so you MUST take EWP).

Looks like this is headed for a hard nerfing.
 
Doesn't much matter to me as my current home game is playing by PFS rules and hornbow isn't legal in PFS, but...

The general thought amongst the posters near the (current) end of the thread seems to be that the last sentence should be prefaced with, "For those proficient with it," (although that was mentioned on page 2 of the thread, no one seemed to catch on until an alternate wording was specified on page 3).

Anyway, HL is wrong on this one; hopefully, you've filed a bug report? That way the HL folks can take it up directly with the Paizo devs for clarification.
 
outshyn said:
FAQ opened up on Paizo's forums for this. Mark Moreland is response #50 at the bottom. On page 2 it gets pretty savage as Mark suggests that the text doesn't even mean Rapid Shot or other bow-like feats apply; it only applies to items you carry that have a effect on the bow. I hope the official FAQ isn't that harsh, but at least now I am confident that this was never, ever intended to confer free usage to bards, ninjas, and so on (so you MUST take EWP).

Looks like this is headed for a hard nerfing.
Click to expand...

A badly needed clarification is not a nerf.
 
LazarX said:
A badly needed clarification is not a nerf.
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Well, to me a "nerf" is when common practice is significantly altered such that a given activity that was considered overpowered is weakened to the point of being useless (or almost useless).

If HL is allowing anyone with bow proficiency to use a hornbow (and many people consider HL to be canonical, including my GM), then I think it qualifies as a nerf.
 
Azhrei said:
Well, to me a "nerf" is when common practice is significantly altered such that a given activity that was considered overpowered is weakened to the point of being useless (or almost useless).

If HL is allowing anyone with bow proficiency to use a hornbow (and many people consider HL to be canonical, including my GM), then I think it qualifies as a nerf.
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Needing one extra feat doesn't really make it a nerf by your definition :-)
 
"I think so Brain, but if a fighter shoots an arrow at an invisible ninja with Snatch Arrows, would the ninja get Sneak Attack when he throws the arrow back?"
 
Aaron said:
"I think so Brain, but if a fighter shoots an arrow at an invisible ninja with Snatch Arrows, would the ninja get Sneak Attack when he throws the arrow back?"
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Arrows are not "thrown" weapons and the feat specifically says "thrown" weapons can be thrown back. So not only no sneak attack but no attack at all. :D :) :p
 
ShadowChemosh said:
Arrows are not "thrown" weapons and the feat specifically says "thrown" weapons can be thrown back. So not only no sneak attack but no attack at all. :D :) :p
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You telling me you cant throw an arrow? I call BS, I could damage something with a thrown hunting arrow...
 
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