Need core races for NPCs

[Mathias]

jlong05, your description of the steps is mixing together elements of PC character creation with NPC character creation - for example, the "Racial Traits" section you say to use is rules content that is only for PC characters, and is not used by NPCs (an NPC's ability scores are set by its array and CR - race does not impact them).

 

[jlong05]

jlong05, your description of the steps is mixing together elements of PC character creation with NPC character creation - for example, the "Racial Traits" section you say to use is rules content that is only for PC characters, and is not used by NPCs (an NPC's ability scores are set by its array and CR - race does not impact them).

Which I said for a generic pc race should be left up to the gm to set. Let me try another way to explain, as my previous was to mainstream.

I want a CR3 drow ‘priest’, technomancer NPC. How should I do this? Custom has no Drow option as a creature subtype graft. If you select drow enforcer you are forced to a class craft for soldier, or the arms dealer forces envoy. Neither allows from what I can see as a way to create my priestly technomancer to run my evil cult following and torment my players.

These are the options that should be available following the rules from AA, but because you have all AA player races only selectable as a actual race for NPCs you prevent these options from being available.

 

[jlong05]

As an addition, maybe I remember wrong, but I thought Pathfinder or maybe it was DND had commoner as a NPC monster that was available for each player race. This allowed you a base template to build from also but the assigned stat block as 10s adjusted for the stat block racial bonuses. I guess I just assumed that was the same in Starfinder as well for each playable race made available in the AA and APs.

 

[Tarmor]

As an addition, maybe I remember wrong, but I thought Pathfinder or maybe it was DND had commoner as a NPC monster that was available for each player race.

Commoner is an NPC Class (not race, monster or template) in 3/3.5 and Pathfinder. You still had to "construct" your base character before adding the class. Starfinder is not PF or 3.5, it's built completely differently - you can't make characters in the same way. PC's and NPC's are not made the same way (Starfinder Rules, not HL/LW choice) and it sounds like you want them to be the same. You can tell Paizo you don't like their way of doing things, but it isn't likely to change the way this happens now.
Maybe an "Encounter Builder" for Starfinder with a bunch of pre-built NPCs to choose from would help you.

 

[jlong05]

I said I couldn’t remember, not that I wanted it to the case. I was offering it as a possible option if it was valid. As you said it is not. What is valid however is my wanting to create custom NPCs following the AA rules for player race selections. Currently ONLY CRB player races work. The AA player races appear missing as the method to use them is different. HLO needs to be consistent for all player races to be used as NPCs, and it currently isn’t. CRB use custom race, but AA races are coded as normal race options, but as I showed for Drow locked to specific grafts, without options to customize.

Hopefully this is simply just an oversight and the AA races will be added as custom race selections, or vice versa the CRB player races will become standard race selections. I have a feeling the only correct method though is the custom route as the CRB races are missing valid stat blocks as a monster.

 

[thistledown]

I'll admit my motivation on this is actually a bit backwards. What I really want is for making a PC that takes the human race chassis as a baseline and modifies it from there. And I hadn't seen the 'custom race' option on the PC side until now. I'd still like to see the core races as presets, but might be able to at least get my own character done.

 

[Aaron]

Which I said for a generic pc race should be left up to the gm to set. Let me try another way to explain, as my previous was to mainstream.

I want a CR3 drow ‘priest’, technomancer NPC. How should I do this? Custom has no Drow option as a creature subtype graft. If you select drow enforcer you are forced to a class craft for soldier, or the arms dealer forces envoy. Neither allows from what I can see as a way to create my priestly technomancer to run my evil cult following and torment my players.

These are the options that should be available following the rules from AA, but because you have all AA player races only selectable as a actual race for NPCs you prevent these options from being available.

When you choose Custom Race, click on the race when it is added and give it the name "Drow", then just add the array and technomancer class graft. Since there isn't a subtype graft specifically for drow, add the Elf subtype and then select "Drow" in its dropdown.

You can then add whatever abilities you like past there. If by "priest" you mean the theme, you can either add each ability that adds individually, or the parent ability which bootstraps the set.

 

[jlong05]

When you choose Custom Race, click on the race when it is added and give it the name "Drow", then just add the array and technomancer class graft. Since there isn't a subtype graft specifically for drow, add the Elf subtype and then select "Drow" in its dropdown.

You can then add whatever abilities you like past there. If by "priest" you mean the theme, you can either add each ability that adds individually, or the parent ability which bootstraps the set.

While I understand I can go about the entire custom process, the race is in fact in the game with base racial abilities that should be set when you select Drow as a race. I continue to hear this about subtype graft, which is accurate, but clearly poorly designed by Paizo. Its unfortunate that we have to jump through hoops to create the NPC we want simply because Paizo didn't spell it out for everyone, unless we are to believe that NO new AA races are expected to be used outside the defined designs they created.

Again, nothing that LW can fix, as they need to follow the rules as written, I just will wait till we can add custom content ourselves and fix as it is needed.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Its unfortunate that we have to jump through hoops to create the NPC we want simply because Paizo didn't spell it out for everyone, unless we are to believe that NO new AA races are expected to be used outside the defined designs they created.

Yes this is different from Pathfinder. But its not a "jump through hoops" because its a bad thing. Its a different and better way to craft NPCs. If you give it a try you may find you like it way better.

Pathfinder monster creation rules do not work and only "sort of" mimic the same rules as a PC. They really don't and if you ever tried to make a PF1 monster from scratch its comes really clear they don't work. Here is even Mark Seifter post saying the same thing about PF1 rules. It really is much better once you toss out the PF1 rules and start using Starfinder monster rules (plus I am sure this will be close to PF2 rules if you plan to play PF2). I think you will really enjoy the time savings.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I just will wait till we can add custom content ourselves and fix as it is needed.

Just wanted to add I 100% agree with this part. HLO is just not going to feel complete until we have an editor.

 

[Azgulor]

See THIS thread for details. But a NPC is not built like a PC and you do not start with "race" to build a NPC monster. Regardless if you are trying to build a human solider you don't start with Human you start with type Humanoid and go from their.

Just a suggestion, but either this thread or the one linked by ShadowChemosh above should be made into a STICKY.

Personally, I'm really liking HeroLab Online. And while I was initially VERY resistant to NPCs being built by different rules than PCs, I'm finding that with SF the differences are slight enough that unless a character becomes a recurring NPC, the differences probably aren't worth the fuss.

However, trying to figure out how to build the NPCs was much less intuitive and was taking longer than making PCs until I found these threads. That's not a knock at Lone Wolf since they're just adapting the NPC rules, but it was counter-intuitive to not select Race-->Human when HLO was constantly prompting me to select a race!

Now that I know to use Custom Race as my starting point when building anything other than a premade Alien/"Named Encounter" NPC, it goes much more quickly.

I do think having "stock race baseline" with base options autoselected would be more intuitive, but the current NPC build system works just fine. But it could be a bit clearer that Custom Race is a typical starting point.

 

[wheredoigo]

This is largely where I ran into issues in the understanding of player races as NPCs, because the new player races in AA were presented as a traditional race instead of as a humanoid that you then selected as a subtype selection. The consistency for this isn't clear and it is confusing because of this.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the issue you are running into please disregard this if I am), but you can select the races from Alien Archive to create an NPC with Hero Lab Online. Select "Custom Race" for the NPC, Select "Humanoid" for the Creature Type Graft, then select the humanoid subtype (e.g. vesk, kish, reptoid, etc.) using the Creature Subtype Graft table.

I understand that LW can't/shouldn't make up rules, but this is where there should be some communication back with Paizo to better explain how this should work, especially when you see AA races also as options. Personally, I think the AA races should be base AA rules for Monster use, with the ability to follow the custom NPC rules using the player races in AA following the same rule building design from the Core book. That would keep consistency and be more clear.

You can still create an NPC using the same rules as a PC. I am not entirely sure how balanced that would be, but you could certainly do it. Just roll up a PC and use it as an NPC.

As far as I know, the rules for NPC building in Starfinder are similar to what Paizo used for Pathfinder 1st Ed. The Bestiaries have a "Monster Creation" appendix at the back which have tables for stats, grafts for different creature types/subtypes. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I haven't GM'd a Pathfinder game before so it isn't something I am super familiar with.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the issue you are running into please disregard this if I am), but you can select the races from Alien Archive to create an NPC with Hero Lab Online. Select "Custom Race" for the NPC, Select "Humanoid" for the Creature Type Graft, then select the humanoid subtype (e.g. vesk, kish, reptoid, etc.) using the Creature Subtype Graft table.

The confusion is coming from the idea that GM wants to just add "Human" or "Elf" as the race and go to town. Its a fall out from the way PF1 does stuff and not yet common knowledge that Starfinder does not build NPCs that way.

You can still create an NPC using the same rules as a PC. I am not entirely sure how balanced that would be, but you could certainly do it. Just roll up a
PC and use it as an NPC.

I would advise against this as PC and NPC math is very different. PCs have much higher AC but lower attack values. NPCs have very low AC but much higher attack values. Other differences but those are the most obvious. Why this could be fun for a boss/sub-boss encounter it does not go well for what should be easy combat encounters. The higher AC means it could feel like a slug with everyone missing each other.

As far as I know, the rules for NPC building in Starfinder are similar to what Paizo used for Pathfinder 1st Ed. The Bestiaries have a "Monster Creation" appendix at the back which have tables for stats, grafts for different creature types/subtypes. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I haven't GM'd a Pathfinder game before so it isn't something I am super familiar with.

Actually its very different from PF1 rules. Its much closer to the Unchained Pathfinder rules which where 'optional' and not used by everyone. PF1 monsters attempt to use the same rules as the PCs so that hit dice equals level and require spending resources like skill ranks and feats. Starfinder is designed to use fast generation rules without needing to deal with lots of small minutia of details.

 

[wheredoigo]

Thanks for clarifying some points for me, ShadowChemosh!