My Players Reaction To Player Edition

[pickin_grinnin]

I guess my question is what other software are you using that you want to manipulate your Realm data in that you want to be able to export to?

At the very least, I want to be able to dump to PDF, so that I can maintain paper backups.

I would very much like to be able to export to .csv files, at the very least, or have some sort of SQL access to my database so that I can pull data out myself.

I don't really have a need to do any data manipulation outside of Realm Works right now. I want those capabilities so that I can maintain running data backups and still access my content if and when Lone Wolf drops support for Realm Works and/or goes out of business (it happens eventually to almost all proprietary software). Since I still occasionally reuse content I created in the late 70s for D&D, I know that I will want to be able to continue to access content I create today.

I create a LOT of content, and have been doing so for more than 35 years. I have about 3/4 of it printed out and put in binders, and it takes up five bookshelves, each with five individual shelves. It takes a lot of work to get stuff into Realm Works, and I have a truly massive world I would like to put into it. Given that, I have to know for absolute sure that I can get that content back out if I need to.

I have a friend who just dropped Realm Works and has moved his stuff to Scrivener, so I may check that out and see what I think about it. I would much rather use a product designed specifically for rpg stuff, though.

As an IT guy / librarian I spend a lot of my professional time working with data. I have helped 15 libraries extract their data from proprietary systems when those systems were no longer supported (or when they found better products). In the past, when I solely did IT, I did the same thing for at least a hundred businesses of various sizes. It's always a nightmare when the proprietary products don't give you a specific way to get the data out, whether with SQL queries, .csv dumps, or something else.

Other people have different needs, but judging from the comments here and elsewhere on Internet, a pretty significant number of customers (and potential ones) see PDF export as essential, and don't like having to potentially wait another year to get it.

 

[Acenoid]

+1 nice post. Would be good to see the survey soon.

To be safe that no one exports published material access to db could be limited to entries w/o an specific no export flag?export in various formats would also be very nice.

And the more I enter into the realm the more concerned I have become. I will start now to save in word and rw I think.

Also to be safe against the situation that the export will be too basic; )

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

First sorry for the late response to your post Liz... Holidays and all has me in catch-up mode both professionally and personally...
@ All, this may be a LENGTHY response to convey in detail what was provided to me via my players....

I'm curious how much you told your players about what to expect with Player Edition (actually, this goes for everyone).

Since the inception of RW and my first day purchase (Was out of country and missed the kickstarter) I have utilized the "in can" demo version (ie the Mcguffin) to first convey what the software would/could do for our table. The overall initial response was ... eh.... if it helps u (ie the DM)

As we generally meet face to face, the "player view" is seldom a tool I needed. (have other superior methods)

As time has progressed from that March release, they could see the usefulness of the linked features and the time it saved. Thus they looked forward to the players version release. They began to read the newsletters, the updates on the LWD site, and were often telling me the snipits of updated information. Here is where 2 issues were born..... These issues became exasperated on the release of the PE version...

To clarify, (consolidated from the two emails from my beta players)

Date of Release>

22May> Rob> The net result will be weeks of delay in getting Player Edition out the door. target is to get a Beta release of Player Edition out to the Beta team in mid-June, which is a month later than we previously projected. Our primary focus will initially be Player Edition, after which we’ll focus on bringing web-based player access online. Aside from the initial delays caused by recent events, we expect those two tasks to stay largely on track from here on out.

Didn't Happen

21Jun >Once key pieces seem to be working for us internally, we’ll begin rolling out functionality to the Beta team in stages so they can test everything out, and we’ll fix whatever issues they uncover before releasing to everyone else. Based on our current progress, we’re projecting that Player Edition will officially release in about four weeks, although we’ll be doing our utmost to get it out sooner if at all possible.

Didn't happen either.

July> This includes full preview of everything players will see in the Player Edition version, as well as all the mechanisms for inviting other Realm Works users into their realms, holding private discussions with players, and managing overall participation within their realms…… and then Player Edition will be officially released to the public. We believe that will only take another two or three weeks

Still nope

Aug> few remaining aspects of Player Edition that existed prior to Gen Con. We’ll be doing our best to get all those sorted out this coming week, but the effort could extend into the following week.,,,,,,, If all goes well, Player Edition is only a couple weeks away.

Still NO

Unless any major new issues are uncovered, we should be able to release Player Edition within the next two weeks!

Still Still No

October flew by for the Realm Works team as we focused on dotting all the i’s and crossing all the t’s for Player Edition, ………………….Based on our experiences thus far, we don’t want to put an exact date on it. So for now we’ll say “real soon”

Nope still Nope

Realm Works Player Edition is Now Available!
19Nov

FINALLY, and not all the features promised

So, to consolidate, One frustration from my players was a 22May+4weeks deliverable sliding to 19Nov. They could understand it better if two things were done differently.
1> wasn't "2-3 weeks" slide at a time. This led to continual false hope. As one of my players is a project manager for a concrete company, she is painfully familiar with meeting promised schedule dates (can you tell? hehe)
2> they got what they thought they were promised once they endured the delay.

They didn't get either. They were under the premise that the delays were to provide all the features as listed, not some. Which leads me to your second question.

In other words, did they know not to expect journals and were nonetheless disappointed that they weren't there. Or did they hear "Player Edition", assume some sort of journal feature would be present, and end up disappointed when there wasn't one.

Neither

Built with the same powerful features as Realm Works GM Edition, you can visualize the relationships and connections between all of the people, places, and events that make up your GM’s world.You can even take your own personal notes that can be linked back to important content within the story

&

A common question we’ve been hearing recently is, “isn’t that what patches and updates are for?” We believe this question comes out of a misconception that Realm Works is ready for release and we’re just adding additional features and functionality not necessary for initial sale. This is not the case. Unlike other companies, we believe our customers deserve a quality product upon purchase – software with all of the features and usability enhancements necessary for the initial public release .

From the Features listing of RWPE. It doesn't let YOU visualize what YOU think is important, and create a linked note or comment to it. It only displays what the DMs has marked for display

Translation> MY players expected the same features (as the GM Edition) promised, that they could link comments, notes, Journal entries because it was supposed to have those SAME features. They didn't expect to be able to create a realm, but did expect they could interact with the data with in the one they had access to.
Reality> they see only the links that I have greenlighted. They have no means to mark or pin maps add notes to them, track the passing of time (a cascade problem because of it not existing in RW).

Keep track of ideas for the evolution of your character, theories about the campaign, thoughts about specific NPCs, or anything else that comes to mind with your own notes

and

Players can also independently lookup information, review what they’ve learned, and even make notes with same powerful linking capabilities as the GM version

And

If, during the next session, I forget where our travels took us in the previous session, I can just click the map pin and it will bring up the information my character learned about that particular location.

Again from another perspective of the other player, They expected to be able to apply whatever notes / comments they have into the map, the lists of people, places, etc. Not just read the comments I flag for view. They feel that the "note feature" as it stands is little more than a watered down Wordpad with minimal link (one direction) feature.

Immediate Focus
There are a handful of capabilities that will be our primary focus over the next few months
• Journals – The journal mechanism allows GMs to create diaries and other similar types of material that can be found during play by the PCs. It also provides the means for players to track the exploits of their characters. Our original design for journals was determined to be insufficient during Beta testing, so we re-designed and expanded what they can do. We weren’t able to get the new design completed in time for V1.0, so we’ll be working on that now.
• Web-Based Player Access – Our goal with Realm Works is to provide GMs and players with “anywhere access” to their realms. To this end, we’re now working to make everything accessible via a browser-based interface, allowing users to view content on any suitable device they own. Obviously, players will only see the information revealed by the GM.

Where are these?

And

we believe our customers deserve a quality product upon purchase – software with all of the features and usability enhancements

They expected those features because of the schedule slipping that these elements were what was being worked on based on the length of slippage and the comment from LWD on what would be supplied. So, sorry liz, there (to my knowledge) is nothing suggesting that the journal (nor the web-access for that matter) was NOT included when finally released. Since it was certainly said in May that the "next few months" those specific items would be of focus.

Oh, and for any that were curious, the top end limit for a post is 10,000 characters...

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord Galen View Post
Even some detail features available in the DM version of RW are not there in PE, ctrl q for example. They as players may wish to flag people they have encountered that I in my RW did not. In some cases I didn't feel the NPC was relevant (could the players know that .. of course not) in other cases, it was oversight on my part.

Perhaps a "tool" that would allow Players to flag, people, places, events, etc that would create a list during their "sync" up to the DM level. When the DM syncs, the DM could decide whether those "flagged items" are warranted to be incorporated via an approve or something

That's definitely an interesting idea, but I'm unsure what limitations we have from a technical standpoint. "Content creation" was supposed to fall squarely under the GM Edition. This would be a great idea to throw into the Feature Request forum.

I agree unsure of the technical application, and agree that Realm creation should be GM only... but a campaign is a cooperative. seems there is a need for some means of collection of data from that sourcing.

 

[meek75]

I wonder if the "Fog of World" catch phrase has also contributed to what people were expecting from PE. I know that it has been repeatedly stated that RW is not a VTT, but "Fog of World" immediately (in my mind) trigger "Fog of War" popular in VTTs. The hole idea of Fog of World, I think, is to reveal information incrementally to players. I think it implies I certain amount of interaction and cause some to expect a "live" reveal like VTT do with Fog of war.

 

[evildmguy]

DLG - what do you use for a player view? I have found it quite better than most other options, including some VTTs, and I also have player's at the table. The scaling really makes it tough for them to figure out if they have more to go or not, so I have liked that, at least when I used it to reveal maps. The fact that it can also hold NPC pictures and it's better than the one vtt I got okay with. (maptools)

I think I'm also in the same camp as DLG with regards to expectations, even if I didn't articulate them as well as he did. I have been following the updates, so expected players to be able to add their own notes, why be constrained to the GMs notes for a map or NPC, and put them into the Realm. As was said, they can't create Realms, only add to Realms they have invites to was what I was thinking.

Without that, from what I have seen and read recently, this has no value for my group, as they don't tend to use things after the fifth or sixth session. Having said that, I will still get a lot of use out of RW but not as much as I thought.

Again, I probably interpreted things differently but for some reason, I was thinking a collaborative tool for both sides, players and DM.

meek72 - Good point. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Fog of World means real time updates, just as fog of war does.

Thanks!

edg

 

[spacemarinejunkie]

I really think that Lone Wolf needs to do a YouTube tutorial showing how Realm Works interacts with player edition. Do a mock game session and show how the two programs currently interact. Don't use any features that are currently in development, just use the features that we can use now. Pay special attention to the concerns on this forum since this is direct feedback from users. I personally have always learned how to use software most efficiently through the review of these types of tutorials.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

DLG - what do you use for a player view? I have found it quite better than most other options, including some VTTs, and I also have player's at the table. The scaling really makes it tough for them to figure out if they have more to go or not, so I have liked that, at least when I used it to reveal maps. The fact that it can also hold NPC pictures and it's better than the one vtt I got okay with. (maptools)

Well, lets see, it depends. To fully answer you would have to understand our table first.
We typically have 3 types of games around our table.
1> A scheduled game. We create a gaming calendar for a year based on the likely game availability of players. I culminate the usual work schedules, holidays, birthday avoidances, etc and we use that as a plan revisiting it about 3 times a year as various things come up. I publish it on our server (that the players have access).

From the scheduled game windows we set which PC group plays on what weekend that the players are available.
2>Is what we call a "One Off" a non-scheduled game usually involving only one or two characters (players)
3>Midsummer's Eve & Years End Game-A-Thon- Are 2 day events where we start play on Friday evening and stop Sunday evening. I generally have a bit "extra" set for these, a large scale battle or a culminating event in the storyline.

Sorry for the level of detail, but it helps to understand the differences in our game sessions.

For fullblown game sessions, I generally utilize slideshows to show what the players have seen or dealt with from last session ie pictures of monsters, NPCs, recap events, etc. I use a multitude of software for this. Word, Excel, PDFs, culminate in Powerpoint.
I utilize mapping software to display the maps we use on 2 embedded TVs in a table (see Liz's what does your table look like thread). I originally used Battlegrounds Games for maps. I found it too limiting, so I progressed to D20pro because it allows me to create maps, Fog of war, add tokens, all digitally. A perk is I can create Tokens with attached pictures and descriptions. I really don't care about the VTT parts (some do) Since I have over 3k of minis and can create as many tokens as I like. The ability to assign it an IP address also allows for my out of country players to sit in via Skype.

For smaller sessions I still utilize the mapping table, but the session is geared to a more personal level, complete a quest, do some research for an item, etc. These sessions get incorporated into the overall game storyline.

For the Game-A-Thon sessions we break out all the bells and whistles of course. Background sounds, theme foods, etc.

The versatility that RW brings in incorporating a multitude of my different note cashes accumulated through 25+ years of game play will help me further consolidate all that data in one locale in a usable fashion. The ability (if fulfilled) the Players edition could bring flanging up to all this data for my players is certainly hopeful.

Without that, from what I have seen and read recently, this has no value for my group, as they don't tend to use things after the fifth or sixth session. Having said that, I will still get a lot of use out of RW but not as much as I thought.

Again, I probably interpreted things differently but for some reason, I was thinking a collaborative tool for both sides, players and DM.

Well put, I too thought it would be a collaborative as well... though the jury is still out, I am less than hopeful of the prognosis. Like you I can see this aiding me in my endeavors (with the RW fulfilled promises) but the Players Edition as it sits was $30 waiting on the hope of something.

meek72 - Good point. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Fog of World means real time updates, just as fog of war does.

I agree, I think that became the general interpretation. Though I personally didn't see it as interchangeable.

 

[monsterfurby]

I wonder if the "Fog of World" catch phrase has also contributed to what people were expecting from PE. I know that it has been repeatedly stated that RW is not a VTT, but "Fog of World" immediately (in my mind) trigger "Fog of War" popular in VTTs. The hole idea of Fog of World, I think, is to reveal information incrementally to players. I think it implies I certain amount of interaction and cause some to expect a "live" reveal like VTT do with Fog of war.

I'm beginning to sound far too negative for my liking, considering I still like RW a lot and see a lot of potential here, but the Fog of World thing has always been silly. It's a "our cigarettes are toasted"-type empty marketing thing, considering hiding and revealing parts of information to players is something that at least two other systems I am aware of (Roll20 and OpenRPG) have been able to do for ages.

Come to think of it, OpenRPG even had a fairly way of handling data overall (in a modular fashion).

 

[liz]

Snip - excellent feedback

Thank you Dark Lord Galen. This sort of feedback is incredibly constructive.

As I said earlier in this thread, everyone's feedback and players reactions have been thought-provoking. In fact, its prompted a number of conversations among us internally. As all of you gave your thoughts right before and over the holidays, our conversations have been pretty surface-level so far, but they'll definitely continue now that we're all back in the virtual office.

Thank you to everyone for your candid reactions and observations. Through reading comments like this and the survey, it looks like we're going to be getting a lot of good data (both qualitative and quantitative) this month on what GMs and Players want to see in Realm Works.

 

[liz]

On a more personal level, thank you for everyone's comments on communicating the delays and what to expect from Realm Works. It's informative, and it will be something I think back to when communicating expectations in the future.

Additionally, thank you to everyone for keeping this thread civil. This could have easily spiraled down a nasty hole, and I appreciate that we have such an awesome community that wants to focus on being constructive in their feedback.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

Additionally, thank you to everyone for keeping this thread civil. This could have easily spiraled down a nasty hole, and I appreciate that we have such an awesome community that wants to focus on being constructive in their feedback.

Couldn't not agree more...
+3.1412

 

[evildmguy]

Additionally, thank you to everyone for keeping this thread civil. This could have easily spiraled down a nasty hole, and I appreciate that we have such an awesome community that wants to focus on being constructive in their feedback.

As the OP, I appreciate it as well. Thanks!

 

[evildmguy]

DLG: Wow, quite the setup! Sounds awesome!

I try and have pictures of some kind. I do use some sound as well. Same for handouts and maps when I can. It just depends on how much I get done during the week.

Thanks!

edg

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

WHIRRRRummph!!!! Thread Necro!!!!
hehehe
On a filter search for something else... I ran across this ... now 4 1/2 YEARS later and still no discernable progress.... truly pitiful... So many names I recognise even then raised concerns, and questions of the path forward, only to be told "SOON"tm......

But the thread does make for an interesting read especially after the amount of time that has past...

LWD should be ashamed..... No one can question the dedication of the community that has endured for years on false hope and promises...

All the +1s and various polls are simply a wasted smoke screen for the community to falsely entertain themselves and don't remove the lack of commitment by LWD to those that have supported RW.

Time to remove "THE FOG FROM the WORLD", come into the light and make good on your commitments that resemble something besides the "Community Market".

It is the only way LWD can restore any shred of honor and trust to the community.

Respectfully
DLG

 

[MaxSupernova]

But.. but... I read a thread yesterday saying that they promised to be more accessible and responsive!

Are you saying this might just be a technique to get us to shut up and not actually provide any detailed regular information? That they *still* won't provide regular updates, just replies to long complaint threads with comments about how they are "doing stuff" and we should just wait? That after 5+ years of requests to do so they won't just give even monthly scheduled updates? That they'll still blame us for impatience rather than actually just writing a post every few weeks?

I'm shocked.

 

[weogarth]

DLG 3 1/2 but yeah. Def depressing.

 

[Dark Lord Galen]

DLG 3 1/2 but yeah. Def depressing.

Well, to clarify, I was referring to the planned release date (5/22/2104) of RWPE and not the posting... and yea I rough mathed it.. (technically 4 years 2 months & 16 days counting today)...
Sad part is to even have to post this....

And further saddening (looking out for the grammar police ) is this thread was discussing essentially an ADD ON feature to RW for the players that was thinly veiled as to "create revenue" while LWD "worked on finishing" the CM.

And now here we are over 4 years from then and RWPE does what?? really?? RW still awaits CM and we still wait for deliverables advertised not days, or weeks , or months ago.. but years..

DLG

 

[evildmguy]

Well, to clarify, I was referring to the planned release date (5/22/2104) of RWPE and not the posting... and yea I rough mathed it.. (technically 4 years 2 months & 16 days counting today)...
Sad part is to even have to post this....

And further saddening (looking out for the grammar police ) is this thread was discussing essentially an ADD ON feature to RW for the players that was thinly veiled as to "create revenue" while LWD "worked on finishing" the CM.

And now here we are over 4 years from then and RWPE does what?? really?? RW still awaits CM and we still wait for deliverables advertised not days, or weeks , or months ago.. but years..

DLG

(5/22/2104)