Multiple gms for a single realm

[cedwards4]

I looked around a bit but I don't see whether this is possible as of yet. Can there be more then one gm for a realm? I am running a game campaign where we switch the gm occasionally. It would be great if more then 1 person could be authorized to be the gm on the realm so they could be entering information, preferable simultaneously.

 

[zarlor]

I think once cloud sharing is available that should be very doable.

 

[Chemlak]

Huge warning flag!

Well, okay, maybe not quite that bad, but this is one of those "Whoa, there, do you know what you're asking?" things.

Say you have 2 GMs, at widely separated locations, who are both entering topics, and due to a slight mix-up in their communication, they both enter the same topic, and Sync.

Which topic will exist afterwards? Do the topics merge? Does one get destroyed by the second sync? Does it throw a sync error, and ask which copy to keep? If they merge, what order should the snippets appear in? Does it keep two copies of identical snippets?

These are just a few of the multi-GM syncing questions that LWD need to nail down before multi-GM support becomes viable. The syncing logic needs to be robust, safe, and make sure that info doesn't get lost. This is a big deal.

I expect it to happen, yes, but it might be a while before multi-GM support becomes a reality.

 

[MaxSupernova]

Huge warning flag!

Well, okay, maybe not quite that bad, but this is one of those "Whoa, there, do you know what you're asking?" things.

Say you have 2 GMs, at widely separated locations, who are both entering topics, and due to a slight mix-up in their communication, they both enter the same topic, and Sync.

Which topic will exist afterwards? Do the topics merge? Does one get destroyed by the second sync? Does it throw a sync error, and ask which copy to keep? If they merge, what order should the snippets appear in? Does it keep two copies of identical snippets?

These are just a few of the multi-GM syncing questions that LWD need to nail down before multi-GM support becomes viable. The syncing logic needs to be robust, safe, and make sure that info doesn't get lost. This is a big deal.

I expect it to happen, yes, but it might be a while before multi-GM support becomes a reality.

I think it could be greatly simplified by having a simple "check this realm out for editing" mode, where only one can be editing at a time. No edit collisions then.

It's still a significant code effort, but less so than trying to reconcile simultaneous edits.

 

[EightBitz]

I think it could be greatly simplified by having a simple "check this realm out for editing" mode, where only one can be editing at a time. No edit collisions then.

It's still a significant code effort, but less so than trying to reconcile simultaneous edits.

That only works with live database connections, which this program does not do. Even when you're logged in, you're edits are done locally, then you sync before logging off. How would you check for "editing mode" then?

Or say both people are editing offline, not even logged in. An hour later, one person logs in to sync, then logs off. An hour after that, the second person logs in to sync. Depending on what editing was done, the second person could overwrite what the first person did and could have things in his local copy overwritten that might have wanted to save and didn't realize had been edited in the cloud.

So, yeah, it's not quite all that simple. It would be NICE . . . but not simple.

 

[lifer4700]

Actually, it's quite simple.

The whole idea behind "check out for edit" means that no one else would be able to make changes while the realm is checked out.

The default condition for a realm would be "checked in" and unavailable for edit.

When a GM wants to make changes, they check it out.

When the 2nd GM went to grab a copy of the Realm or make changes to their local copy, they would have to check it out, but would not be able to, since it is checked out by the first GM.

When the first GM is done making edits, they sync and check in. Then the 2nd GM would be able to check out the realm, recieving the edits made by the first GM, and then make their own changes until they did their sync and check in.

It's a simple concept, but very limiting (by design).

 

[lifer4700]

On the other hand, concurrent work in the DB by multiple users - which is what I think 8bitz is referring to - would be super-mega-awesome, but that most certainly would be complex to implement, and would require constant live connections to The Cloud.

 

[MaxSupernova]

I think eightbitz is raising that if you are offline, there would be no way to check if the realm can be checked out for editing.

Which can be solved by making it impossible to check out a Realm for editing if you're offline, which causes problems of its own...

It's a huge set of design decisions.

 

[lifer4700]

... making it impossible to check out a Realm for editing if you're offline ...

That's the way it works.

Is it elegant? Nope.
Is it the best solution? Nope.

But it's effective and relatively easy to implement.

I work for a major engineering software company, and one of our largest products is a database for document and CAD data management. Our software allows you to dynamically open and make edits in a structure or document while connected live, and the software implicitly checks things out and in as you move around making changes. Ideally, that's where I'd like to see Realm Works. Multiple people could be working on the same assembly, just in different parts. No problems.

However, you can also explicitly check out (and download) a document or CAD part, or an entire assembly, taking your time and working off-line. Meanwhile, no one else can check out that data. You can connect and upload your changes occasionally if you like, all the while keeping your checkout, so people can see any progress you're making, but until you check it back in, no one else can perform a checkout.

 

[EightBitz]

That's the way it works.

Is it elegant? Nope.
Is it the best solution? Nope.

But it's effective and relatively easy to implement.

I work for a major engineering software company, and one of our largest products is a database for document and CAD data management. Our software allows you to dynamically open and make edits in a structure or document while connected live, and the software implicitly checks things out and in as you move around making changes. Ideally, that's where I'd like to see Realm Works. Multiple people could be working on the same assembly, just in different parts. No problems.

However, you can also explicitly check out (and download) a document or CAD part, or an entire assembly, taking your time and working off-line. Meanwhile, no one else can check out that data. You can connect and upload your changes occasionally if you like, all the while keeping your checkout, so people can see any progress you're making, but until you check it back in, no one else can perform a checkout.

I would imagine that the cost of buying into that technology would be a bit higher than fifty bucks.

 

[Bluephoenix]

A possible solution is to explicitly type realms as "single GM" or "Shared Realm"

that way single GM realms still have all the offline flexibility of current, but shared realms can use a sharepoint-esque checkout system where the realm is locked to edits by anyone except the person who has checked out the realm.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

That's the way it works.

Is it elegant? Nope.
Is it the best solution? Nope.

But it's effective and relatively easy to implement.

So you would remove from everyone the ability to work offline (a purposeful design decision implemented by LWD to benefit gamers who don't always have internet access) so that a small subset of users could co-author realms? That doesn't seem "simple" at all.

I agree with zarlor that the upcoming realm sharing ability will probably solve your issue.

 

[lifer4700]

So you would remove from everyone the ability to work offline (a purposeful design decision implemented by LWD to benefit gamers who don't always have internet access) so that a small subset of users could co-author realms?

Absolutely not!

There is nothing preventing someone from working offline in that description. In fact, it fully supports working offline, exactly as it is now, except for the fact that once you first create the realm, you would also do a "checkout".

Then work offline all you want.


The only way you would be preventing people from working offline is if you want to have multiple GMs working simultaneously. That's when you would need to be constantly connected. Unless you allow checking out of certain parts for offline work, allowing one person to work on the World Almanac, for instance, while another worked on Mechanics, and a third worked on Story boards and Encounters. But that's not horribly elegant either.

 

[Mystic Lemur]

Sorry, still having trouble reconciling this:

Which can be solved by making it impossible to check out a Realm for editing if you're offline, which causes problems of its own...

That's the way it works.

With this:

There is nothing preventing someone from working offline in that description. In fact, it fully supports working offline, exactly as it is now, except for the fact that once you first create the realm, you would also do a "checkout".

Especially considering you mentioned being able to update changes to your realm (the same as "Syncing" unless I'm misunderstanding you) without allowing the realm to be accessed for edit by another device. So I guess if you sync but forget to release write protection, you just don't get to work on the realm again until you get back home.

I must be missing something basic here, because this all seems needlessly complicated for such a small benefit.

 

[lifer4700]

Ok, I'll back up a bit and try explaining it differntly.

Right now, there is only 1 GM per Realm.
Initial creation of a Realm and Syncing are the only things which require The Cloud.

The GM can always edit their local copy of the Realm, Syncing when/if they wish.



With something like Realm checkout, the only change a single GM would notice is the addition of a "checkout" box.

The single GM would create a new Realm and it would automatically be checked out to them.
The GM can still always edit their local copy of the Realm, Syncing when/if they wish.
They just simply never check it in. Nothing changes.




However, this setup allows multiple GMs to share editing responsibilities, giving the others a break.
Note: This is not simultaneous edits by concurrent users.

GM1 would create a new Realm, which is automatically checked out to them.
GM1 makes any offline changes they wish.
GM1 Syncs, and checks it back in - retaining their (now read-only) local copy for reference.

GM2 checks out the Realm, recieving an editable local copy of GM1's work.
GM2 makes their changes offline.
GM2 has made good progress but isn't complete with their work yet.
GM2 Syncs with The Cloud, but retains the checkout.

GM1 can Sync with The Cloud, recieving GM2's updates.
GM1's local copy is still read-only, but now contains the updates that GM2 made.

GM2 contines to work offline.

Eventually, GM2 would Sync and Check In, and GM1 could then Check it back out again. Or a 3rd GM...



Without sharing logins, and without requiring constant connection to The Cloud, this is the only way to safely have multiple GMs per Realm. By only allowing one to edit at a time.


It's basic document management checkin/checkout functionality, but treating the entire Realm as a document.

 

[MaxSupernova]

I think we're arguing about something that is still theoretical, and the actual technical implementation isn't up to us anyway...

 

[lifer4700]

Sorry, I didn't know we were arguing - I was just trying to explain a suggestion I made.

...and yes, it is all theoretical at this point.


Ultimately, I would like to see the ability for Realm Works to allow "hot" or "live" updates to The Cloud in order to support the way I play, but I know I'm a very small minority, so I don't expect that to happen any time soon, or at all. And even then, I would only want it to be an option. Even I wouldn't want to be required to have a constant connection The Cloud in order to run the software.

 

[MaxSupernova]

Sorry, I didn't know we were arguing - I was just trying to explain a suggestion I made.

You're correct. "Discussing" would be a better word.

 

[Zaphod Beebledoc]

However, this setup allows multiple GMs to share editing responsibilities, giving the others a break.
Note: This is not simultaneous edits by concurrent users.

GM1 would create a new Realm, which is automatically checked out to them.
GM1 makes any offline changes they wish.
GM1 Syncs, and checks it back in - retaining their (now read-only) local copy for reference.

GM2 checks out the Realm, receiving an editable local copy of GM1's work.
GM2 makes their changes offline.
GM2 has made good progress but isn't complete with their work yet.
GM2 Syncs with The Cloud, but retains the checkout.

GM1 can Sync with The Cloud, receiving GM2's updates.
GM1's local copy is still read-only, but now contains the updates that GM2 made.

GM2 continues to work offline.

Eventually, GM2 would Sync and Check In, and GM1 could then Check it back out again. Or a 3rd GM...

Seems to me this is tied to player syncing as well.

To amend the above example...

GM1 would create a new Realm, becoming the Editor which is automatically checked out to them.
GM1 makes any offline changes they wish, including creating Players and GM/Players. (GM/P1 and GM/P2 included as a GM/Players and P3, P4 and P5 as Players .)
GM/P1 Syncs, and checks it back in, - retaining their (now read-only) local copy for reference and becoming a Player and Viewer.

GM/P2 checks out the Realm, becoming the GM and Editor receiving an editable local copy of GM1's work.
GM/P2 makes their changes offline.
GM/P2 has made good progress but isn't complete with their work yet.
GM/P2 Syncs with The Cloud, but retains the checkout.

GM/P1 can Sync with The Cloud, receiving GM/P2's updates.
GM/P1's local copy is still read-only, but now contains the updates that GM/P2 made.

GM/P2 continues to work offline.

Eventually, GM/P2 would Sync and Check In, becoming a Player and Viewer, and GM/P1 could then Check it back out again, becoming the GM and Editor. Or a 3rd GM/P...

 

[lifer4700]

Exactly that, ZB.

If you are not the current "Editor GM" your access is exactly the same as a player's would be normally.