Multiple Class Tables

[RavenX]

Mathias,

I was wondering if you think it would be feasible to have 2 or 3 class tables on the same tab for handling multiclass characters? I've been thinking about it a bit and I think it would be easier to manage multiple classes individually, especially since the XP earned gets split evenly amongst them.

 

[Mathias]

How about an incrementer on each class, in order to handle level?

Since unlike AD&D v3+, class order doesn't actually matter in 1st and 2nd, only the level, there isn't a need for the ordered list of classes that Pathfinder and d20 use.

You wouldn't need the Class/Class level distinction that d20 and Pathfinder use, either - you'd just add a single Class pick to the table for each of the classes you wanted to use.

Although you'll need to think through the dual-classing rules. I remember that those were pretty illogical and hard to understand, so I don't know if they'll affect how you need to write the class mechanisms.

 

[RavenX]

I'm using the 2.5 updated books. Multiclass was basically take two or three classes at
1st-level, divide your hit die roll by the number of classes and round down. So a dwarven fighter/thief would roll 1d10 hit points / 2 rounded down and 1d6 hit points / 2 rounded down and summed together for hit point total. The XP earned was divided evenly amongst the classes, so the thief will level up faster than the fighter will... You take the best option from each class for things like THAC0 and proficiencies.

Dual-Classing was level up to a certain point, the drop the primary class and start taking levels in a new class from 1st level. You start over at 0 XP from 1st level in the new class, but retain all the skills/abilities gained from the previous class.

The reason I was doing it like pathfinder is that I have to track hit points and psionic strength points at each level. And on top of that there are level dependent abilities. For example, at level 3 a paladin gains Turn Undead/Fiends, at level 4 Summon Mount, at level 9 begins casting priest spells as a 1st-level priest, etc.

 

[Mathias]

I'm afraid I haven't played 2ed in so long, I don't recall the details of how the classes work, so I can't help you decide how you want to present the class tables to the user.

The second part of your reasons - the level dependant abilities - that could be handled either way - that's not a reason to pick the way the Pathfinder/d20 files choose classes and levels vs. the way the 4ed files choose class and level. Differing HP and other rolled values at each level is a legitimate reason to have separate picks for each level, but you should also consider other ways to go about that.

How about choosing each class, and choosing the level of each one with an incrementer, and then a set of 20 (or more) bootstrapped picks reveal themselves as you level, each one offering the HP box for that new level?

How about a set of universal class level picks - the same 20 (or more) picks would be enmassed to all characters. The actual classes would be added once each, with an incrementer, and the level picks would reveal themselves as you leveled. Each one would figure out what level it represented, so if it calculated that it was for a Fighter level, it would ask you to enter Fighter HP. If it was for a Fighter/Thief level, it would show you a Fighter HP box, a Thief HP box, and have you enter each, and then show you the total for that level.

 

[RavenX]

I'm afraid I haven't played 2ed in so long, I don't recall the details of how the classes work, so I can't help you decide how you want to present the class tables to the user.

The second part of your reasons - the level dependant abilities - that could be handled either way - that's not a reason to pick the way the Pathfinder/d20 files choose classes and levels vs. the way the 4ed files choose class and level. Differing HP and other rolled values at each level is a legitimate reason to have separate picks for each level, but you should also consider other ways to go about that.

How about choosing each class, and choosing the level of each one with an incrementer, and then a set of 20 (or more) bootstrapped picks reveal themselves as you level, each one offering the HP box for that new level?

How about a set of universal class level picks - the same 20 (or more) picks would be enmassed to all characters. The actual classes would be added once each, with an incrementer, and the level picks would reveal themselves as you leveled. Each one would figure out what level it represented, so if it calculated that it was for a Fighter level, it would ask you to enter Fighter HP. If it was for a Fighter/Thief level, it would show you a Fighter HP box, a Thief HP box, and have you enter each, and then show you the total for that level.

For one, I don't know what the reasoning for d20's classes being coded vs. 4e, you haven't really explained to me the reasons for doing things one way vs. the other that would help me make a decision on that. What are the critical reasons for having class levels and a class helper vs. the 4e method? Also, keep in mind that I have to eventually be able to add in Archetypes (Character Kits) as well, which may replace class abilities at certain levels or do swap outs.

When I started studying things the pathfinder method seemed appropriate since I needed storage for user input values which pathfinder does at each level. I need to be able to have something that stores both Hit Points per level and Psionic Power Points per level (Wild Talents). I went with what seemed easiest to do. I can try to code it up with the method you've described and see how it goes. I was trying to avoid using too bootstrap conditions, as the kitwiki isn't very useful in that department.

 

[Mathias]

4e has a simple class system - no multiclassing, no dual classing. So unlike d20/pathfinder, the order you add a class doesn't matter - the only thing that matters is how many levels you have in your single class. It's also got fixed HP/level, I think, so that removes the other problem. If it weren't for dual-classing, 2ed I think has the same thing - you pick one class and stick to it.

Bootstrap conditions wouldn't be needed - you'd just use the tags on them to control whether they were shown or not.

 

[RavenX]

4e's multiclassing was pick a feat, add class feature. It was there, it was just different, and cost a feat slot. 2e, we have hit dice up to level 9/10 for some classes, and PSPs per level. Which get fixed after a certain point too. I wanted to include an optional rule that allowed users to keep rolling hit dice and PSPs if the DM decides to include that.

What I am gathering from this is that pathfinder's class tab is set up the way it is because the order of the classes is important, whereas 2e they're not as important.

 

[sincla]

Hi Raven,

Could you give me some pointers how to set up the ordered class table like in Pathfinder/d20? I've been struggling with getting the Level portal to increment sequentially for each new class pick. The way I'm going about it is to use a buy transaction when a new class is chosen in a dynamic table. Everything works fine except the level column; I can't get it to keep track of the order in sequence. It all gets set to the same number, the current total character level. I tried to set up a creation script with an xactsetup and xactbuy script, where xactsetup will take the current total character level and store it in a transact field, the xactbuy script will increment it by one , and the creation script will assign it to a local field variable. The problem is it seems that the portal displays the field value after the buy but before the creation script is run, so that only the default field value ever gets shown. I tried usage pools as a middleman to no avail. And the xact scripts are picky about when the pick actually gets created such that I haven't figured out the real sequence yet. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[RavenX]

Why are you using a buy transaction for this? Buy transactions are for things that cost the user money. You don't need a buy transaction at all in the table_dynamic. You might need to build your own table templates though...

 

[sincla]

I resorted to it because I can't find anywhere the code for the action "add" button at the bottom of a choose table. Do you know where that is? It's not documented. That would be the place I would have originally put all changes associated with fields required for display in the show table.

 

[RavenX]

I'm not using a transaction element at all on my display tables. They're just info portals in a template that call a procedure from procedures.dat that synthesizes the data to display. That's pretty much all they are.

I suggest studying the Portal (Element) in the kit wiki. Action portals are what you want to look at, specifically action="info" to set up the portals. All I did was use a mouseinfo in the portal to display the table.

 

[sincla]

I'm following your advice and not using transaction elements at all. I'm talking only about the choose form on the dynamic table. How do I implement a script for when the "Add" button is pressed? This seems to be an auto-defined element and I can't find the code and there's no wiki documentation on it. If I make my own action portal to implement a trigger script, what is the code to add an item to the show form from the choose form? The attribute for that is also not listed on the description of the action portal. I think I'm just lacking access to kit information that's not on the wiki.

 

[RavenX]

What are you trying to get your table_dynamic to do?

Have you tried looking at the tab in 4e that lets a user add a class? You can look at the power tables to get an idea of what you need to do, they're dynamic tables.

You need a choosetemplate and showtemplate for table dynamic, these can be set to SimpleItem if they don't need to show more than the class name.

 

[sincla]

What are you trying to get your table_dynamic to do?

Have you tried looking at the tab in 4e that lets a user add a class? You can look at the power tables to get an idea of what you need to do, they're dynamic tables.

You need a choosetemplate and showtemplate for table dynamic, these can be set to SimpleItem if they don't need to show more than the class name.

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't explain well what I want to do.

I just want to replicate the behavior of the class levels table in the class tab of the d20 system, where the levels column increments by one each time you add a class. For some reason I'm having a lot of trouble just getting it to number the rows sequentially (1, 2, 3, 4....). Is that more clear? I will spare describing to you all the failed approaches I've tried . I'm sure it's something really obvious, but I'm having a major beginner moment here.

 

[sincla]

In the big picture I'm trying to make my own personal use files for D&D 5th edition, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to just use the d20 system and tweak it with the editor until it's good enough.

 

[RavenX]

I answered this question for you Here.