M&M 3e and the Lack of Drawbacks

[charlieluce]

OK, I admit it. I've been avoiding the whole issue with the editor, and having to maintain changes across updates, and distribute the data files to my players that have Hero Lab (and hope they used them properly). If I tweaked a cost in my 2e house rules, I just told my players to use a custom Extra or Flaw or Feat or Drawback with an appropriate label to make up the difference.

Now, however, I'm getting ready to run a 3e campaign, and while the equivalent of Power Feats and Drawbacks are still around, Character Drawbacks are no longer with us, and there's no way to make a Power or Advantage have a negative cost, tossing a wrench into my workaround.

For example, if I were to decide that 3e Presence was too expensive, I can no longer fake it by telling the player to add a custom Disadvantage to make up the difference.

What do I do now? I really didn't want to open up the Editor can of worms for the reasons I gave above, but I want to be able to have house rules and still be able to use Hero Lab.

Suggestions? Something I overlooked? Am I just being a big baby about the whole Editor thing?

 

[FifthWanderer]

The kind of modifications you're talking about are beyond the scope of the editor I believe. Hero Lab is built to support the core rules as written, within limited variation.

I'm not too sad to see character Drawbacks go, however. Too many players just saw them as free power points, and took action in play to avoid them ever coming into play.

 

[Shadowchaser]

My players never took them because as a rule, they saw them as lingering punishments for a paltry few points towards building their characters. Having Complications is a huge advancement beyond them, imho.

If you wanted to add PP to a character for drawbacks, however, you could simply use the Advancement Journal to add PP as if it were from adventures, and describe the drawbacks in the journal.

 

[charlieluce]

My players never took them because as a rule, they saw them as lingering punishments for a paltry few points towards building their characters. Having Complications is a huge advancement beyond them, imho.

If you wanted to add PP to a character for drawbacks, however, you could simply use the Advancement Journal to add PP as if it were from adventures, and describe the drawbacks in the journal.

In a word, yuck. The great thing about Drawbacks was that they appeared on the character sheet in a nice straightforward fashion.

 

[charlieluce]

The kind of modifications you're talking about are beyond the scope of the editor I believe. Hero Lab is built to support the core rules as written, within limited variation.

I'm not too sad to see character Drawbacks go, however. Too many players just saw them as free power points, and took action in play to avoid them ever coming into play.

I'm not talking about putting Drawbacks back with the editor (though I suppose if it allowed adding a Ranked Advantage with a negative cost that would do the trick), I was talking about having to use the editor to change the costs rather than using my easy workaround.

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

My players never took them because as a rule, they saw them as lingering punishments for a paltry few points towards building their characters. Having Complications is a huge advancement beyond them, imho.

....

I have to say that M&M 2nd Ed, considering how it is "very similar" to HERO System in everything but without the complex math & other "details" like acceleration/deceleration being a normal consideration in a character's movement, did pretty much drop the ball when it came to Character Drawbacks. Both in the way M&M 2nd Ed. presents them and, as Shadowchaser says, the paltry value you get in terms of power point refund.

None of the player characters in either of the games I am in have taken Character Drawbacks (including me and I'm normally a stickler for character concept trumping "point efficiency aka Min/Max-ing" considerations when creating a character but...no, it isn't worth it) and very few have joined me in putting some Complications onto their 2nd Edition character.

So I have to agree with Shadowchaser that, on the face of it since we haven't started a 3rd Ed. game to put this to the test, it's better that Character Drawbacks have been dropped.

Okay, getting off of my soapbox now.
Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[charlieluce]

I have no problem with Character Drawbacks being dropped in 3e. Pretty much the only thing I used them for was to fudge house ruled cost changes, and that's the only thing I miss about them (in Hero Lab).

Which brings me back to my original question...

 

[Shadowchaser]

I have no problem with Character Drawbacks being dropped in 3e. Pretty much the only thing I used them for was to fudge house ruled cost changes, and that's the only thing I miss about them (in Hero Lab).

Which brings me back to my original question...

I'm sorry, I thought your original question was about Character Drawbacks (hence the name of the thread). After reading your original post, it seems you're trying to adjust the costs of something, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do.

Perhaps if you explained more specifically what you were trying to change about the way 3E works, we could offer suggestions about using Hero Lab to help you?

 

[Nigel Fogg The Wayfarer]

I'm sorry, I thought your original question was about Character Drawbacks (hence the name of the thread). After reading your original post, it seems you're trying to adjust the costs of something, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do.

Perhaps if you explained more specifically what you were trying to change about the way 3E works, we could offer suggestions about using Hero Lab to help you?

I also thought he was focusing on Character Drawbacks since Charlieluce's original post specifically called out the lack of Character Drawbacks:

"...Now, however, I'm getting ready to run a 3e campaign, and while the equivalent of Power Feats and Drawbacks are still around, Character Drawbacks are no longer with us,..."

Nigel Fogg, aka The Wayfarer

 

[Duggan]

Right. He wants a way to be able to apply a "negative pp cost" situation and he doesn't like the idea of adding the pp via the Advancement tabs, possibly because they have some other meaning to him (like indicating when a particular character is close to gaining a PL, particularly since different heros may advance at different rates depending on relative heroism, attendance at game session, bringing extra munchies, etc.

 

[charlieluce]

Yeah, I just found it handy to be able to fudge a house ruled lower cost for a non-power by using a Drawback instead of having to go through the whole editor thing, and with 3e there is no way to do that.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the pros and cons of Drawbacks themselves.

 

[charlieluce]

Perhaps if you explained more specifically what you were trying to change about the way 3E works, we could offer suggestions about using Hero Lab to help you?

Primarily at the moment I want to cut the cost of Presence. I'd prefer to do this without using the Editor for the reasons mentioned in my first post (which boils down to the fact that I bought Hero Lab to save work, not make it).

 

[Shadowchaser]

How about a flawed version of Enhanced Presence?

 

[charlieluce]

I may have to end up doing it that way, though I'd be much happier if I can convince Colen to implement a House Rule for it; technically it would have to be Innate as well (though I suppose I can always just ignore that), and I'm not sure I can make the costs come out right (there's the rounding issue, which really annoys me).

I think what it really comes down to is that I'm way too picky.

 

[Shadowchaser]

I may have to end up doing it that way, though I'd be much happier if I can convince Colen to implement a House Rule for it; technically it would have to be Innate as well (though I suppose I can always just ignore that), and I'm not sure I can make the costs come out right (there's the rounding issue, which really annoys me).

I think what it really comes down to is that I'm way too picky.

I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of the house-rulesy stuff when the 3E versions of Ultimate Powers and Mastermind's Manual come down the pike. We just need to be patient and put up with 3E's (perceived) inadequacies for the time being.

Personally, I'm wanting the option to make Willpower based off Presence OR Awareness (I'll be choosing Presence for my campaigns), but aside from that I'm pretty happy with Hero Lab for the nonce. Of coure, we still need to squish all the bugs and get all the rules clarifications in there.

 

[Colen]

I thought there was already an Adjustment for this, but it appears not. I'll add a "Power Points" adjustment that lets you add or subtract power points from the hero's total, and which should show up in the validation text on printed output. That way you can record any bonuses / penalties you give to people for things like house rules.