Knowledge skills

[SeeleyOne]

What I did to change my Knowledge references, such as in the Scholar edge, was "skKnow" becomes "skKn?".

foreach pick in hero where "thingid.skKn?"

This way every skill that starts with skKn is a type of knowledge skill. I made it this way so that I could specify Knowledges that are used in a given setting, with no need to retype the same things over and over again (like Arcana, Battle, Medicine, Law, etc.). The way that I see it, if an edge is allowed in a setting, and it requires a specific knowledge, you might as well have that knowledge programmed in before hand. It saves everyone else effort later on, which is the entire point of having a program do it all for you.

Furthermore, there is a need to identify Scientific knowledge skills, which are explicitly referenced in two edges: Gadgeteer and Mr Fix It. As written Hero Lab cannot do this. But an easy fix was to make a slightly different wildcard, which uses the same ID naming convention. as shown here:

Two Scientific Knowledge skills at d6 required.

        ~go through all knowledge skills and check for d6
        ~Note: We cannot tell if a skill is scientific or not - that's up to the player. The prebuilt knowledges know however
        var total as number
        foreach pick in hero where "thingid.skKnSc?"
          if (eachpick.field[trtFinal].value >= 3) then
            total += 1
          endif
        nexteach
        ~if we have at least two, we're valid
        validif (total >= 2)
        if (@ispick <> 0) then
          altpick.linkvalid = 0
          endif

Specific ID Naming is not a new convention. Until recently it was the standard manner to show that a character had an Arcane Background. My predefined science skills all have the ID that starts with "skKnSc".

You might want to have a predefined Knowledge skill. The only thing that you might need to modify is the Scholar edge and anything that references that Programming knowledge. That said, it is likely that would only be in the same data set anyway so it could just reference the "new" specific Knowledge: Programming skill.

Copy the Scholar edge. For the new version, here are some things to change:

I don't think that I had changed the Eval Scripts, but if I did they are as follows

Eval 1 (it uses Traits)

      ~apply the +2 modifier to each selected skill
      if (field[usrChosen1].ischosen <> 0) then
        perform field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[trtRoll].modify[+,2,"Scholar"]
        endif
      if (field[usrChosen2].ischosen <> 0) then
        perform field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[trtRoll].modify[+,2,"Scholar"]
        endif

Eval 2 (it uses Render)

      ~determine the text to append to the name
      var choices as string

      if (field[usrChosen1].ischosen <> 0) then
        if (field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[domDomain].text <> 0) then
          choices = field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[domDomain].text
        else
          choices = field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[shortname].text
        endif
      else
        choices = "-Choose-"
        endif

      if (field[usrChosen2].ischosen <> 0) then
        if (field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[domDomain].text <> 0) then
          choices &= ", " & field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[domDomain].text
        else
          choices &= ", " & field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[shortname].text
        endif
      else
        choices = "-Choose-"
        endif

      ~add the selection to both the livename and shortname (if present) fields
      field[livename].text = field[thingname].text & ": " & choices
      if (tagis[component.shortname] <> 0) then
        field[shortname].text &= " (" & choices & ")"
        endif

Eval Rules is unchanged

The Pre-Reqs coding is changed to this

        var total as number
        ~if this is a thing, make sure at least two skills exist with a d8 rating
        if (@ispick = 0) then
          ~go through all Knowledge skills and tally those with a d8+ rating
          foreach pick in hero where "thingid.skKn?"
            if (eachpick.field[trtFinal].value >= 4) then
              total += 1
              endif
            nexteach

        ~this is a pick, so make sure our chosen skills have a d8+ rating
        else
          if (altpick.field[usrChosen1].ischosen <> 0) then
            if (altpick.field[usrChosen1].chosen.field[trtFinal].value >= 4) then
              total += 1
              endif
            endif
          if (altpick.field[usrChosen2].ischosen <> 0) then
            if (altpick.field[usrChosen2].chosen.field[trtFinal].value >= 4) then
              total += 1
              endif
            endif
          endif

        ~if we have at least two valid skills, we're valid
        validif (total >= 2)

        ~if we got here, we're invalid
        if (@ispick <> 0) then
          altpick.linkvalid = 0
          endif

The Menu 1 Tag Expression is

thingid.skKn? & fieldval:trtFinal >= 4

The Menu 2 Tag Expression is (the same as 1)

thingid.skKn? & fieldval:trtFinal >= 4

Anyway, I think just creating the different specializations as "real" skills might be better. I would have to re-read the Interface Zero stuff to be sure, though. It has been a while.

 

[PhilAdams]

Distinct skills is how I was going to do it originally, but that means having to do what I described before: calculate how many iterations of a skill there are (how many "Shooting" skills are there? how many "Athletic" skills are there?) and knocking the cost of everything after the first down to a flat 1. Unless I'm mis-reading Skill Specializations? The way I read it, you get one specialization free with the skill purchase. Anything after that costs 1 point during creation. When doing advances, you can get two specializations for one advance or a specialization and a new skill. However, a specialization always has the same skill die (so if you bought Shooting: Pistols d8 during build, buying two more specializations--Rifles and SMGs--would cost an advance and be at d8). It's on page 95 of SWD or page 16 of IZ, if that helps.

Thanks so much!

 

[PhilAdams]

I'm not sure how to embed code as you're doing, so I apologize for this post. My thinking on this is the brute-force solution is something along these lines?

This would need to be done for each individual skill. Anyway, how insanely far off is this concept?



in traits.str:


<!-- Each skill increment that is allocated by the user costs 1 or 2 skill points -->
<eval index="2" phase="Traits" priority="10000">
<before name="Calc resLeft"/>
<after name="Bound trtUser"/><![CDATA[
~any skills on the lead are "important" picks, as without them the lead
~wouldn't be able to be loaded properly. We assume skills on minions are
~less important and aren't worth flagging if they won't load properly.
if (hero.isminion = 0) then
perform assign[thing.important]
endif

~if this skill is not added directly to the hero (i.e. an advance), skip it entirely
doneif (origin.ishero = 0)

~the base value for skills is two, so we need to adjust by one to get the proper cost
var points as number
points = field[trtUser].value - 1

~get the level of our linked attribute and factor in bonuses due to races and such
var attrib as number
attrib = linkage[attribute].field[trtUser].value
attrib += linkage[attribute].field[trtCreate].value

if (hero.tagis[Hero.InPlaySkil] <> 0) then
attrib += linkage[attribute].field[trtInPlay].value
endif


~for specialization, loop through all non-Knowledge skills and count only the first one as full cost
~default is one specialization free, so free_num_skill = 1

var tot_num_this_skill as number
var free_num_skill as number
var num_skill_over as number
free_num_skill = 1

foreach pick in where “thingid.skIZAthlet”
tot_num_this_skill += 1
nexteach
~if multiple uses of the skill
if (tot_num_this_skill > free_num_skill) then
num_skill_over = tot_num_this_skill - free_num_skill
perform #resspent[resSkill,+,
~add an extra point for every level we exceed our linked attribute unless linked to attrSup
~RDS Altered to match SWD rule clarification
~Super Power Skills are always considered lower for the purposes of raising Skills
if (linkage[attribute].tagis[thingid.attrSup] = 0) then
~If you have multiple specializations (more than one use of the skill), then you need to cost each extra as a flat 1 point
~and that requires removing the full cost of each extra first
if (field[trtUser].value > attrib) then
points += field[trtUser].value - attrib
points -= field[trtUser].value * num_skill_over
points += num_skill_over
endif
endif
~else normal ops
else
~add an extra point for every level we exceed our linked attribute unless linked to attrSup
~RDS Altered to match SWD rule clarification
~Super Power Skills are always considered lower for the purposes of raising Skills
if (linkage[attribute].tagis[thingid.attrSup] = 0) then
if (field[trtUser].value > attrib) then
points += field[trtUser].value - attrib
endif
endif
endif



~accrue the total points spent on this skill
perform #resspent[resSkill,+,points,field[name].text]
]]></eval>

 

[SeeleyOne]

OK, I read the Interface Zero rules, and they are using the same Specialization rules from Savage Worlds Deluxe. I honestly do not know why you are wanting to count the number of skills. Maybe there is something that I did not see, and if so perhaps you can direct me to a page number? I have Interface Zero 2 (I was a Kickstarter backer).

The way that it works in Savage Worlds Deluxe is that if you do not have a given specialization, when you use it you do so at a -2. So a dude with Shooting Bows can shoot a bow at full Shooting, but other Shooting weapons, such as a Pistol or Rifle, are all at -2. All that a Specialization does is remove the -2. It could also be called "Proficiency".

How I would handle it is by making each Specialization an edge.

You can make up an edge category called Specializations. You could even make a category per skill, like "Shooting Specialization". You can make the edge require that skill at d4 or whatever so that the character has to at least have the skill at d4 (or higher for perhaps a more advanced specialty).

There is a space in the editor for each edge that says "Advancement Slots". Put 0.5 in that space so that each one will cost 1, meaning half an edge. You can buy two of them for the cost of an edge during character creation or later on through advancement.

There are a few places where you will need to change things a bit, like so that a character that has a pistol will get a -2 to Shooting if there is no Pistol specializtion. I would place this in a mechanic like I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[SeeleyOne]

In the mechanic I would do something like this, to look for pistols

if (hero.tagis[Edge.edgPistol] = 0) then
      foreach pick in hero from WeapRange
         if (eachpick.tagis[WeaponType.ModPistol] <> 0) then
             eachpick.field[wpBonus].value -= 2
         endif
     nexteach
endif

 

[PhilAdams]

I hadn't thought of the Edge idea. That might be a heckuva lot easier to implement. Thanks!

The reason for counting how many times a specific skill was purchased in my solution was to know how much to subtract from the points tally. Example:

Shooting (Pistol) d8
Shooting (Rifle) d8
Shooting (SMG) d8

Assuming AGI d8, the software currently would charge 9 points for that. Using specializations as-written, it should charge 5. So, count how many times the skill is purchased (3), [assuming you stick to the default 1 free specialization] subtract 1 from that (leaving you with 2), multiply your skill # (3) by that remaining number (2) and subtract that from your tally of 9 (9-6 =3, so we're down to 1 purchase of the skill, as we should be). Then add back in the number of extra skill purchases because each extra skill purchase is actually a specialization (3+2=5). That's just the solution as I saw it, not realizing Edges might be the way to go.

Does that make sense now?

 

[SeeleyOne]

Ah ok. You wanted a skill for each, but only to charge it once. Yeah, edges as I mentioned is likely a better way. I would do it that way, then have a mechanic as I suggested to apply weapon proficiency penalties. Other skill uses are situstional and not part of the equations. Or at least I cannot think of any. In my example it is for a ranged weapon, hou would need to change for melee weapons. Maybe others, too. I do not know how special weapons might be classified in the editor. I could look tomorrow.

 

[PhilAdams]

I think I'm good for now. I'll try to test this Edges idea before the weekend. Thx again!

 

[PhilAdams]

So, I'm missing something. I built out a test Edge. Shooting Specialization, UniqID edgIZShoSp. This is the code in the Eval Scripts:

if (hero.tagis[Edge.edgIZShoSp] = 0) then
foreach pick in hero from WeapRange
if (eachpick.tagis[WeaponType.ModPistol] <> 0) then
eachpick.field[wpBonus].value -= 2
endif
nexteach
endif


The skill shows up as the default (that's fine). When I buy a modern pistol, it applies a -2. A flintlock doesn't. If I change the code to:

if (eachpick.tagis[WeaponType.ModPistol] = 0) then
eachpick.field[wpBonus].value -= 2
endif

It works fine. That seems backwards. 0 is the "true" logic. What am I missing?

 

[SeeleyOne]

Flintlock is probably either Medieval Ranged or Black Powder. There are several different types. These are specified in a Ranged Weapon entry for a field called "Weapon Type". There are many different categories, which makes something like this kind of annoying. To be totally accurate, the Pistol Specialty would need to have multiple

foreach pick in hero from WeapRange
         if (eachpick.tagis[WeaponType.XXXX] <> 0) then

within the same if statement

if (hero.tagis[Edge.edgIZShoSp] = 0) then

Sorry, I was not more clear. There really are a lot of those categories, and it really depends on what is available in a given game setting. In a setting like Interface Zero, I might just make up my own versions of the equipment, and have it only show that. There is a setting for "No Standard Gear" or similar wording on the Campaign Setting tab in the editor. Just make copies of the weapons that you want to keep and make sure that their category is the same. Maybe just have a "Pistols" category.

0 is False, 1 is True. The intent is for it to have the effect if that edge is NOT on the character. =1 or <> 0 is for if it is on the character, but in the case of specialties we want it to apply when it is NOT on the character.

The <> 0 means "not 0", so true, so it is the same as = 1, but in some cases it might be higher than 1, such as if things are stacking (adding to the same total). In those cases = 1 would be true for 1, but no longer be true at 2 or above, hence the <> 0 as it is a catchall for true. Did I explain that well enough? My head is a bit fuzzy today.

 

[PhilAdams]

AH!!! Okay! I had my Boolean backwards. Sorry! I think I can make this work. I re-intoduced non-Modern Ranged weapons to see if it was my code or not. I think I'm good. I hope.

Thanks!

 

[PhilAdams]

Okay, I finally got the code working. Sort of. What I was afraid might happen with this approach happened--each selection of a specialization edge causes the -2 penalty to kick in for other categories. So if you take Pistol Specialization, Rifles are at -2, Shotguns are at -2, SMGs are at -2, and Heavy Weapons are at -2. All good so far. Now you add Rifle Specialization. Pistols are at -2, Rifles are at -2, and all other categories are at -4. Add Shotgun Specialization, and -it's -4 and -6. D'oh!

The only thing I can think of is to try and build the logic into the armory section somehow and to do some pretty complicated if statements. Unfortunately, the armory stuff has pretty consistently ignored my code. I wish there were a way to look at the hlz file with a step-level debugger to see what's going wrong.

I'll try again and report back.

 

[PhilAdams]

I think I found a solution. Finally. At least it hasn't hit an exception yet. The implementation is brute force and crude and ugly, but since my changes to equipment.str and miscellaneous.str don't seem to impact things (or throw errors during compilation), this was the only thing I could figure out.

Step 1:
Introduce a Setting Adjustment that makes all Skills non-specialized (-2). Right now, that's only being done for the combat skills, but if this works, I'll do it everywhere.

if (hero.childexists[skShooting] = 1) then
perform #traitroll[skShooting,-,2,"Specialization"]
endif
if (hero.childexists[skFighting] = 1) then
perform #traitroll[skFighting,-,2,"Specialization"]
endif
if (hero.childexists[skThrowing] = 1) then
perform #traitroll[skThrowing,-,2,"Specialization"]
endif



Step 2:
Start tracking the unique number of skills. I created a Derived Trait for this (Specializations). I set it up to use Phase: Traits and Priority: 4000. The eval script is:

var modifier as number
modifier = 0

foreach pick in hero where "thingid.sk?"
modifier += 1
nexteach

foreach pick in hero where "thingid.skKn?"
modifier -= 1
nexteach

field[trtBonus].value += modifier
#resmax[resEdge] += .5 * modifier


The resmax for Edge is bumped up .5 for each (non-Knowledge) skill purchased because you get one free specialization.


Step 3:
Instead of subtracting -2 from everything else, now I just add +2 to the specialized skill.

Here's the code for the Eval Script for Assault Rifle specialization:

foreach pick in hero from WeapRange
if (eachpick.tagis[WeaponType.ModAssault] = 1) then
eachpick.field[wpBonus].value += 2
endif
nexteach


I'll try some more things out tomorrow, but at this point, the specialization edge solution is working.

 

[SeeleyOne]

That could work, but the way that I would do it is to do it the original way, and make new categories. The weapons list will show new versions of the weapons, each in its own category. For example, Pistols, Rifles, SMGs, Machnineguns, etc. (whatever categories that you want to use).

The -2 will only apply to that category, and then only if its specialty is false. Yeah it might be kind of annoying to make copies of all of the weapons, but there are two benefits:

1) It shows a very clear list of what weapon belongs to which category. There is no need to look between different categories. A pistol is found only under pistol.

2) It allows you to make any other potential modifications. In your case with Interface Zero most of it is new gear anyway.

 

[PhilAdams]

I did try something similar to what you're talking about--one big block of code--but something has changed in the way the compiler works since the last time I did this sort of work. Some changes to files show up in the compiled system after I reload it, some don't (even after shutting all the way down and reloading). This was the solution that seemed to work. As a result of the compiler's odd behavior, I'm now trying to do everything I can in the editor.

 

[SeeleyOne]

I have thought some more about options to get it to work. I have another idea that works flawlessly (I just tested it) if you are already using new weapons or copies of weapons in the user file.

Make an eval script inside each weapon. There is no looping. The eval script is run for that weapon when it is on the character. The downside is that each weapon entry would need a similar eval script, modified by the specialization/proficiency.

I prefer to use Traits 5000, as it works with my other mods. You can try an earlier timing if you want, but it seems to me that it is a modifier after, and in addition to, all other potential modifiers.

var proficient as number
proficient = -2

if (hero.tagis[Edge.edgPistol] = 1) then
      proficient = 0
endif

field[wpBonus].value += proficient

 

[PhilAdams]

Thanks! You've been a great help! When I get time again, I'll have to give this a try. The convention is just around the corner, so no time for it now ...