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I Wish I never bought it

  • Thread starter Thread starter thecat026 at yahoo.com
  • Start date Start date
At 11:37 AM 1/29/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm sorry, but maybe I am missing something here. You indicate that
>IAL is 'much more expensive' than AB3.0. GW's online store
>(notorious for vicious markup) seems to be pricing this software at
>30 dollars per bundle. That's ten dollars cheaper than the newest
>incarnation of AB. Sure, you have to buy two 30 dollar bundles to
>play _everything_ available...but by my math, this still means that
>you could be playing AN army for 10 bucks less than AB.

The general value argument stems from the fact that most 40K players play
multiple armies, which would entail a 50% higher expense than AB. In
addition, AB's generic design can support all the other games that a large
percentage of people play.

>Which would be quite an improvement over me sitting with my thumb up
>my arse, unable to use AB3.0 for either my WH or my DG armies. Sure,
>its my own fault for not reading every piece of literature available
>before shelling out the cash for AB3.0.

At the top of the webpage during online purchase where you are asked to
confirm acceptance of all the legal crap, the following text is found:

"IMPORTANT! Prior to completing your purchase, make sure that all the
necessary data files both exist and suit your needs for each game system
with which you intend to use Army Builder. You can readily use Army Builder
in Demo mode to confirm all functionality."

The details on data file availability are also posted in a variety of other
places on the site, but the above referenced page MUST be gone through to
complete the order.

Where else would you recommend that we put the above warning and/or how
else would you like us to display it so that it actually gets read? I
honestly would like to hear your ideas so that no one else gets confused by
things.

>I may use AB3.0 sometime in the
>future, but truth be told, if I could get refunded my 40 bucks, I
>would go that route.

Again, have you considered reading the terms you agreed to when you
purchased AB? It's on the same page that contained the warning mentioned
above. It says quite plainly that you CAN obtain a refund within 60 days of
purcahse if you aren't satisfied with the product. So all you need to do is
send an email to us at either support@wolflair.com or sales@wolflair.com
that requests said refund and provides your order number.

>I assume that the product is fully functional right off of the
>shelf.

Army Builder IS fully functional right off the shelf. The data files,
however, are SEPARATE from the product itself. This fact is clearly stated
during the online ordering process.

Army Builder and the data files are a lot like Excel and some of the
various commercial worksheets that can be purchased for use with Excel.
Like Excel, Army Builder is a generic engine, and it IS a complete product.
The data files are like specific "worksheets" for particular game systems.
For most gamers, both the engine and the necessary data files are needed
for AB to truly be useful. That's why we include the warnings during the
online ordering process to make sure that users are aware of this.

>One that someone
>actually bothered to write the files for before the damned thing was
>released.

The 40K data files are highly complex, so they can't just be thrown
together in an afternoon. The people working on the 40K files started
working on them well before AB was released. And they have to coordinate
their efforts to ensure that all the different army lists integrate
smoothly together, else the resulting files would be a mess to use. At this
point in time, my understanding is that more than half of the codices are
supported, and the files are continually being evolved.

>Sorry if I sound bitter, but hell...thanks for that IAL link. :)
>Made my trip to this forum worthwhile.

Based on all the feedback we've received from the majority of gamers (and
store retailers) out there, you'll probably be back to using AB in the
not-to-distant future. Apparently, it took GW seven months to release a
patch to the data files for IAL, and there are still a slew of bugs in
their files. AB data files are much easier to update and DON'T require that
we also release a new version of the product just to fix data file issues.
So the turn-around time is much faster. While the initial time needed to
get all the codices in place is longer than we had hoped, users will
ultimately benefit greatly by the architectural model used by AB that
allows the data files to be readily updated independently of the product
itself.

-Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
 
My understanding is that it'll probably be more like 4-6 weeks before all
the codices are finished.

-Rob

At 02:18 PM 1/29/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>you're right, I should have read all the details before purchasing an
>unfinished product. I'll count this as a loss...or maybe 6 - 7 months down
>the road, I may check back and see if the datafiles I need are finally
>finished.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
 
Yes. I clearly stated in my last post that I blamed myself for not
researching the nature of this software.

That said, I should not, as a consumer, be expected to follow every
link on the webpage before buying the software. It should, in my
opinion, explain up front and in no uncertain terms what the current
incarnation of the program can and cannot do. Even the 'anticipated
release dates' page does not clearly state what armies are available
and what ones are not.

Yes, I COULD have done more homework. But again, why should I have
to? Caveat Emptor is a fine philosophy and all, but its hardly user-
friendly for new users of the software. When I pay 40 dollars for
something, I expect to know its inherent weaknesses before doing so.
Neither the Overview, Product Detail, Word on the Street, nor
Ordering pages indicated that this was 'incomplete' software that
MANY users would be completely unable to use subsequent to
purchasing.

Ultimately, as I said, the fault lies with me. I cut the check
before fully researching what I was buying. But I will certainly say
that Wolflair did NOT make the weaknesses of its product clearly
known beforehand. Had there been a line on the ordering (or overview
or details) page that stated, "Caveat Emptor: Not all army data
files have yet been completed for this. Unless you are playing X, Y,
or Z, you will NOT be able to use this software." I would have felt
much more fairly dealt with.

In closing, I will say this. I own a service-based website that
handles over 125K customers per fiscal year. I make the limitations
of our service known in the User Agreement, but if someone does not
read it carefully enough and they express dissatisfaction with our
service, then they are -instantly- refunded the cost of service.

It'd be nice to expect the same here. But, again, I acknowledge that
the blame ultimately lies with me for being a careless buyer.


--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "ghazhkull_thraka"
<k_kittle@f...> wrote:
>
> http://www.wolflair.com/rightframe.php?
> context=army_builder&page=anticipated_release_dates
>
> Been there since they released AB3. And if you used AB2.2 then
you
> should have known that the files are written by volunteers.
> Wolflair never once implied that the 40K files were ready. You
have
> no one to blame but yourself.
 
Well, I for one never stated that AB was not a 'great program.' Only
that I felt a bit hard-done-by in terms of pre-buy information. I
don't believe a new user should have to click through half a dozen
links and scour Yahoo discussion groups to get a clear understanding
of the software's limitations. I LIKE Army Builder as a program. I'm
just frustrated that I paid 40 bucks for something I may not even be
able to use for 6 more months. Again, the 'Anticipated Release' page
doesn't even list what armies ARE available. Only when SYSTEM
updates are believed to be anticipated.



--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, mrex21@f... wrote:
> Hmm...
>
> The more I read this continuing thread, the more I think the
original
> whiny, griping poster was a GW plant.
>
> AB is a great program. Keep up the great work, Rob!
>
> M.
>
> On 29 Jan 2005 at 19:23, ghazhkull_thraka wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > http://www.wolflair.com/rightframe.php?
> > context=army_builder&page=anticipated_release_dates
> >
> > Been there since they released AB3. And if you used AB2.2 then
you
> > should have known that the files are written by volunteers.
Wolflair
> > never once implied that the 40K files were ready. You have no
one to
> > blame but yourself.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, email
> >
> > armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
 
Hmmmmm,



1) IAL is a 'game specific' system for 40K only which is updated by
GW. So it's for 40K only.

2) AB is a 'non-game specific' system. This gives users scope to
design files for almost ANY game system.

3) AB 3.0 is still young so we should give the file designers time to
're-write' the present game files for the new engine.



I understand Helmuts position and have been there myself. I too have IAL but
prefer AB because it serves all the other game systems I use in the 'one
package'. AB 3.0 will have bugs, cause problems, raise issues for a while
because 'it is still young' and it's up to US the users to help it grow and
develop. Game file writers are hard at work as we speak beavering away at
much needed files for game systems which will be released over time.I
believe that we should be patient and give time. I remember when AB first
come out. I got so frustrated, thought I had wasted my money, so I gave up
using it for a long time. I used other programs to 'write my own' till, one
day I logged on to the Wolflair website, downloaded an update and hey
presto.I have not looked back.

Des.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Foster [mailto:lokriek@hotmail.com]
Sent: 29 January 2005 15:35
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it




yeah, I think you are right. I also assumed that 4th edition rules were
already online. /shrug.

I may go pick it up myself.

>From: "Helmut Grunther" <conjob_76@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: armybuilder@yahoogroups.com
>To: armybuilder@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it
>Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:37:27 -0000
>
>
>
>I'm sorry, but maybe I am missing something here. You indicate that
>IAL is 'much more expensive' than AB3.0. GW's online store
>(notorious for vicious markup) seems to be pricing this software at
>30 dollars per bundle. That's ten dollars cheaper than the newest
>incarnation of AB. Sure, you have to buy two 30 dollar bundles to
>play _everything_ available...but by my math, this still means that
>you could be playing AN army for 10 bucks less than AB.
>
>Which would be quite an improvement over me sitting with my thumb up
>my arse, unable to use AB3.0 for either my WH or my DG armies. Sure,
>its my own fault for not reading every piece of literature available
>before shelling out the cash for AB3.0. But its pretty disappointing
>for someone who impulse-buys after reading the media hype, only to
>find the software unusable until someone ELSE manages to get the
>data files written. I can appreciate the way the system works, but
>for Chrissake, its like buying a game from Troika. You pay 50 bucks
>to 'playtest' their software, then wait in frustration until they
>finally release a patch to make the game playable.
>
>As for me, I've already ordered both versions of IAL. Something I
>SHOULD have done in the first place. I may use AB3.0 sometime in the
>future, but truth be told, if I could get refunded my 40 bucks, I
>would go that route. I haven't even used the damned software and
>likely shan't be for quite some time, if ever. Lessons learned, I
>suppose. Still, when I read-
>
>"But after you figure in the time savings you'll experience in just
>the first month of using the product, Army Builder is a steal!"
>
>-I assume that the product is fully functional right off of the
>shelf. As it is, any time the software would save me would be
>strongly countered by the time I would lose by purchasing,
>assembling, and painting an entirely new army. One that someone
>actually bothered to write the files for before the damned thing was
>released.
>
>Sorry if I sound bitter, but hell...thanks for that IAL link. :)
>Made my trip to this forum worthwhile.
>
>
>
>--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Lokriek" <lokriek@h...> wrote:
> >
> > The do have competition in the 40k market... IAL from Games
>Workshop
> >
> > http://ial.games-workshop.com/default.htm
> >
> > Much more expensive though.
> >
> >
> > --- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Sal Lagonia" <thecat026@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, Mark Havener <impact@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > > At 12:21 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Great, so my computer breaks down. Among my problems is this
> > > stupid
> > > > >army builder. Guess what? I can't use it on another
>computer
> > for
> > > > >ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY DAYS! This is a useless program. I
> > > suggest
> > > > >no one wastes the money.
> > > >
> > > > Someone please explain this predicament to me, I don't
> > understand.
> > > How does
> > > > the key know it's already been installed and all that? And why
> > the
> > > 4 month
> > > > delay?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > >
> > > Because the key needs to be varified online. When you buy the
> > > program, it tells you to buy it so that you can use Army Builder
>on
> > > all of your computers, except you can only install it on one
> > > computer every 120 days, which means that if you lose your
>computer
> > > somehow, you need to buy a new copy, or wait 120 days.
> > >
> > > Personally, I have a game in three days, and I'm not even close
>to
> > > the 120 day mark. I wish you guys had some compitition, because
> > > you'd be out of buisness fast.
>
>
>
>
>
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
Helmut,

If you think it's a problem waiting for AB files, then you're going to be a
real sad panda with IAL. There is no longer a program to update your own
files and in the 1 year + I've had my copy there have been 2 updates and
most of the armies I use still have terrifying amounts of errors in them, to
the point of making the program unusable.

Maybe you'll have better luck then I did, but not if you play either of the
hunters, IG or pretty much any imperial army.

Have to say I wish I'd bought more models rather than that program.

I'm just waiting to buy AB3 for when the 40k file hits, then I'll move up
from my 2.2 version.

-----Original Message-----
From: Helmut Grunther [mailto:conjob_76@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:37 AM
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it




I'm sorry, but maybe I am missing something here. You indicate that
IAL is 'much more expensive' than AB3.0. GW's online store
(notorious for vicious markup) seems to be pricing this software at
30 dollars per bundle. That's ten dollars cheaper than the newest
incarnation of AB. Sure, you have to buy two 30 dollar bundles to
play _everything_ available...but by my math, this still means that
you could be playing AN army for 10 bucks less than AB.

Which would be quite an improvement over me sitting with my thumb up
my arse, unable to use AB3.0 for either my WH or my DG armies. Sure,
its my own fault for not reading every piece of literature available
before shelling out the cash for AB3.0. But its pretty disappointing
for someone who impulse-buys after reading the media hype, only to
find the software unusable until someone ELSE manages to get the
data files written. I can appreciate the way the system works, but
for Chrissake, its like buying a game from Troika. You pay 50 bucks
to 'playtest' their software, then wait in frustration until they
finally release a patch to make the game playable.

As for me, I've already ordered both versions of IAL. Something I
SHOULD have done in the first place. I may use AB3.0 sometime in the
future, but truth be told, if I could get refunded my 40 bucks, I
would go that route. I haven't even used the damned software and
likely shan't be for quite some time, if ever. Lessons learned, I
suppose. Still, when I read-

"But after you figure in the time savings you'll experience in just
the first month of using the product, Army Builder is a steal!"

-I assume that the product is fully functional right off of the
shelf. As it is, any time the software would save me would be
strongly countered by the time I would lose by purchasing,
assembling, and painting an entirely new army. One that someone
actually bothered to write the files for before the damned thing was
released.

Sorry if I sound bitter, but hell...thanks for that IAL link. :)
Made my trip to this forum worthwhile.



--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Lokriek" <lokriek@h...> wrote:
>
> The do have competition in the 40k market... IAL from Games
Workshop
>
> http://ial.games-workshop.com/default.htm
>
> Much more expensive though.
>
>
> --- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Sal Lagonia" <thecat026@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, Mark Havener <impact@c...>
> wrote:
> > > At 12:21 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >Great, so my computer breaks down. Among my problems is this
> > stupid
> > > >army builder. Guess what? I can't use it on another
computer
> for
> > > >ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY DAYS! This is a useless program. I
> > suggest
> > > >no one wastes the money.
> > >
> > > Someone please explain this predicament to me, I don't
> understand.
> > How does
> > > the key know it's already been installed and all that? And why
> the
> > 4 month
> > > delay?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > Because the key needs to be varified online. When you buy the
> > program, it tells you to buy it so that you can use Army Builder
on
> > all of your computers, except you can only install it on one
> > computer every 120 days, which means that if you lose your
computer
> > somehow, you need to buy a new copy, or wait 120 days.
> >
> > Personally, I have a game in three days, and I'm not even close
to
> > the 120 day mark. I wish you guys had some compitition, because
> > you'd be out of buisness fast.








To unsubscribe from this group, email

armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
 
Also, I never purchased AB2.2.
I am a new WH40K player and this software is a completely new
experience for me. As stated in my previous post, I think Wolflair's
site could stand to be a bit more informative and a bit less self-
aggrandizing for NEW users.


--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "ghazhkull_thraka"
<k_kittle@f...> wrote:
>
> http://www.wolflair.com/rightframe.php?
> context=army_builder&page=anticipated_release_dates
>
> Been there since they released AB3. And if you used AB2.2 then
you
> should have known that the files are written by volunteers.
> Wolflair never once implied that the 40K files were ready. You
have
> no one to blame but yourself.
 
Thank you for your well-written and thoughtful response.
As you indicated, the error was mine. I had not realized that the
warning was posted in the user agreement pre-purchase. Thats a
product of my own carelessness, not your error and I apologize for
shifting some of that blame to you.

That said, have you guys considered just expanding your Staff to
include one or two salaried employees to build the datafiles? Your
product seems quite popular, so I can only assume that your company
could afford it and it'd do wonders for the software.

I appreciate the sense of value and community that is built by
having the software supported by volunteers, but it raises questions
of efficiency. People simply tend to be more productive when they're
being compensated financially for their efforts.

Again, I think AB is a solid product. Obviously, I was mistaken in
my assertions about pre-purchase warnings, which leaves me,
ultimately, with very little to complain about save for my own
carelessness.



--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> At 11:37 AM 1/29/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> >I'm sorry, but maybe I am missing something here. You indicate
that
> >IAL is 'much more expensive' than AB3.0. GW's online store
> >(notorious for vicious markup) seems to be pricing this software
at
> >30 dollars per bundle. That's ten dollars cheaper than the newest
> >incarnation of AB. Sure, you have to buy two 30 dollar bundles to
> >play _everything_ available...but by my math, this still means
that
> >you could be playing AN army for 10 bucks less than AB.
>
> The general value argument stems from the fact that most 40K
players play
> multiple armies, which would entail a 50% higher expense than AB.
In
> addition, AB's generic design can support all the other games that
a large
> percentage of people play.
>
> >Which would be quite an improvement over me sitting with my thumb
up
> >my arse, unable to use AB3.0 for either my WH or my DG armies.
Sure,
> >its my own fault for not reading every piece of literature
available
> >before shelling out the cash for AB3.0.
>
> At the top of the webpage during online purchase where you are
asked to
> confirm acceptance of all the legal crap, the following text is
found:
>
> "IMPORTANT! Prior to completing your purchase, make sure that all
the
> necessary data files both exist and suit your needs for each game
system
> with which you intend to use Army Builder. You can readily use
Army Builder
> in Demo mode to confirm all functionality."
>
> The details on data file availability are also posted in a variety
of other
> places on the site, but the above referenced page MUST be gone
through to
> complete the order.
>
> Where else would you recommend that we put the above warning
and/or how
> else would you like us to display it so that it actually gets
read? I
> honestly would like to hear your ideas so that no one else gets
confused by
> things.
>
> >I may use AB3.0 sometime in the
> >future, but truth be told, if I could get refunded my 40 bucks, I
> >would go that route.
>
> Again, have you considered reading the terms you agreed to when
you
> purchased AB? It's on the same page that contained the warning
mentioned
> above. It says quite plainly that you CAN obtain a refund within
60 days of
> purcahse if you aren't satisfied with the product. So all you need
to do is
> send an email to us at either support@w... or sales@w...
> that requests said refund and provides your order number.
>
> >I assume that the product is fully functional right off of the
> >shelf.
>
> Army Builder IS fully functional right off the shelf. The data
files,
> however, are SEPARATE from the product itself. This fact is
clearly stated
> during the online ordering process.
>
> Army Builder and the data files are a lot like Excel and some of
the
> various commercial worksheets that can be purchased for use with
Excel.
> Like Excel, Army Builder is a generic engine, and it IS a complete
product.
> The data files are like specific "worksheets" for particular game
systems.
> For most gamers, both the engine and the necessary data files are
needed
> for AB to truly be useful. That's why we include the warnings
during the
> online ordering process to make sure that users are aware of this.
>
> >One that someone
> >actually bothered to write the files for before the damned thing
was
> >released.
>
> The 40K data files are highly complex, so they can't just be
thrown
> together in an afternoon. The people working on the 40K files
started
> working on them well before AB was released. And they have to
coordinate
> their efforts to ensure that all the different army lists
integrate
> smoothly together, else the resulting files would be a mess to
use. At this
> point in time, my understanding is that more than half of the
codices are
> supported, and the files are continually being evolved.
>
> >Sorry if I sound bitter, but hell...thanks for that IAL link. :)
> >Made my trip to this forum worthwhile.
>
> Based on all the feedback we've received from the majority of
gamers (and
> store retailers) out there, you'll probably be back to using AB in
the
> not-to-distant future. Apparently, it took GW seven months to
release a
> patch to the data files for IAL, and there are still a slew of
bugs in
> their files. AB data files are much easier to update and DON'T
require that
> we also release a new version of the product just to fix data file
issues.
> So the turn-around time is much faster. While the initial time
needed to
> get all the codices in place is longer than we had hoped, users
will
> ultimately benefit greatly by the architectural model used by AB
that
> allows the data files to be readily updated independently of the
product
> itself.
>
> -Rob
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Rob Bowes (rob@w...) (650) 588-8252
> Lone Wolf Development
www.wolflair.com
 
Get over the 6 months man...unless you play one of the armies that isn't
done it's useable...just get over the 6 months

Toller Madsen
webmaster@gatekeepersguild.com
toller@hillcity-comics.com

This is an exact quote for a from a CCRA NAFTA document

Determination of Country of Origin:

...(h) goods taken from outer space, where the goods are obtained by that
country or by a person of that country;...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helmut Grunther" <conjob_76@yahoo.com>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it


>
>
>
> Well, I for one never stated that AB was not a 'great program.' Only
> that I felt a bit hard-done-by in terms of pre-buy information. I
> don't believe a new user should have to click through half a dozen
> links and scour Yahoo discussion groups to get a clear understanding
> of the software's limitations. I LIKE Army Builder as a program. I'm
> just frustrated that I paid 40 bucks for something I may not even be
> able to use for 6 more months. Again, the 'Anticipated Release' page
> doesn't even list what armies ARE available. Only when SYSTEM
> updates are believed to be anticipated.
>
>
>
> --- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, mrex21@f... wrote:
> > Hmm...
> >
> > The more I read this continuing thread, the more I think the
> original
> > whiny, griping poster was a GW plant.
> >
> > AB is a great program. Keep up the great work, Rob!
> >
> > M.
> >
> > On 29 Jan 2005 at 19:23, ghazhkull_thraka wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.wolflair.com/rightframe.php?
> > > context=army_builder&page=anticipated_release_dates
> > >
> > > Been there since they released AB3. And if you used AB2.2 then
> you
> > > should have known that the files are written by volunteers.
> Wolflair
> > > never once implied that the 40K files were ready. You have no
> one to
> > > blame but yourself.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, email
> > >
> > > armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
 
I believe it might be considered a legal thing. The fact that they do not
provide data files allows them to continue operating without the GW lawyers
down their throat for a competing software (if you can call GW's software
competition). I could be wrong but that's what was explained in the past.

Toller Madsen
webmaster@gatekeepersguild.com
toller@hillcity-comics.com

This is an exact quote for a from a CCRA NAFTA document

Determination of Country of Origin:

...(h) goods taken from outer space, where the goods are obtained by that
country or by a person of that country;...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helmut Grunther" <conjob_76@yahoo.com>
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it


>
>
>
> Thank you for your well-written and thoughtful response.
> As you indicated, the error was mine. I had not realized that the
> warning was posted in the user agreement pre-purchase. Thats a
> product of my own carelessness, not your error and I apologize for
> shifting some of that blame to you.
>
> That said, have you guys considered just expanding your Staff to
> include one or two salaried employees to build the datafiles? Your
> product seems quite popular, so I can only assume that your company
> could afford it and it'd do wonders for the software.
>
> I appreciate the sense of value and community that is built by
> having the software supported by volunteers, but it raises questions
> of efficiency. People simply tend to be more productive when they're
> being compensated financially for their efforts.
>
> Again, I think AB is a solid product. Obviously, I was mistaken in
> my assertions about pre-purchase warnings, which leaves me,
> ultimately, with very little to complain about save for my own
> carelessness.
>
>
>
> --- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, Rob Bowes <rob@w...> wrote:
> > At 11:37 AM 1/29/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> > >I'm sorry, but maybe I am missing something here. You indicate
> that
> > >IAL is 'much more expensive' than AB3.0. GW's online store
> > >(notorious for vicious markup) seems to be pricing this software
> at
> > >30 dollars per bundle. That's ten dollars cheaper than the newest
> > >incarnation of AB. Sure, you have to buy two 30 dollar bundles to
> > >play _everything_ available...but by my math, this still means
> that
> > >you could be playing AN army for 10 bucks less than AB.
> >
> > The general value argument stems from the fact that most 40K
> players play
> > multiple armies, which would entail a 50% higher expense than AB.
> In
> > addition, AB's generic design can support all the other games that
> a large
> > percentage of people play.
> >
> > >Which would be quite an improvement over me sitting with my thumb
> up
> > >my arse, unable to use AB3.0 for either my WH or my DG armies.
> Sure,
> > >its my own fault for not reading every piece of literature
> available
> > >before shelling out the cash for AB3.0.
> >
> > At the top of the webpage during online purchase where you are
> asked to
> > confirm acceptance of all the legal crap, the following text is
> found:
> >
> > "IMPORTANT! Prior to completing your purchase, make sure that all
> the
> > necessary data files both exist and suit your needs for each game
> system
> > with which you intend to use Army Builder. You can readily use
> Army Builder
> > in Demo mode to confirm all functionality."
> >
> > The details on data file availability are also posted in a variety
> of other
> > places on the site, but the above referenced page MUST be gone
> through to
> > complete the order.
> >
> > Where else would you recommend that we put the above warning
> and/or how
> > else would you like us to display it so that it actually gets
> read? I
> > honestly would like to hear your ideas so that no one else gets
> confused by
> > things.
> >
> > >I may use AB3.0 sometime in the
> > >future, but truth be told, if I could get refunded my 40 bucks, I
> > >would go that route.
> >
> > Again, have you considered reading the terms you agreed to when
> you
> > purchased AB? It's on the same page that contained the warning
> mentioned
> > above. It says quite plainly that you CAN obtain a refund within
> 60 days of
> > purcahse if you aren't satisfied with the product. So all you need
> to do is
> > send an email to us at either support@w... or sales@w...
> > that requests said refund and provides your order number.
> >
> > >I assume that the product is fully functional right off of the
> > >shelf.
> >
> > Army Builder IS fully functional right off the shelf. The data
> files,
> > however, are SEPARATE from the product itself. This fact is
> clearly stated
> > during the online ordering process.
> >
> > Army Builder and the data files are a lot like Excel and some of
> the
> > various commercial worksheets that can be purchased for use with
> Excel.
> > Like Excel, Army Builder is a generic engine, and it IS a complete
> product.
> > The data files are like specific "worksheets" for particular game
> systems.
> > For most gamers, both the engine and the necessary data files are
> needed
> > for AB to truly be useful. That's why we include the warnings
> during the
> > online ordering process to make sure that users are aware of this.
> >
> > >One that someone
> > >actually bothered to write the files for before the damned thing
> was
> > >released.
> >
> > The 40K data files are highly complex, so they can't just be
> thrown
> > together in an afternoon. The people working on the 40K files
> started
> > working on them well before AB was released. And they have to
> coordinate
> > their efforts to ensure that all the different army lists
> integrate
> > smoothly together, else the resulting files would be a mess to
> use. At this
> > point in time, my understanding is that more than half of the
> codices are
> > supported, and the files are continually being evolved.
> >
> > >Sorry if I sound bitter, but hell...thanks for that IAL link. :)
> > >Made my trip to this forum worthwhile.
> >
> > Based on all the feedback we've received from the majority of
> gamers (and
> > store retailers) out there, you'll probably be back to using AB in
> the
> > not-to-distant future. Apparently, it took GW seven months to
> release a
> > patch to the data files for IAL, and there are still a slew of
> bugs in
> > their files. AB data files are much easier to update and DON'T
> require that
> > we also release a new version of the product just to fix data file
> issues.
> > So the turn-around time is much faster. While the initial time
> needed to
> > get all the codices in place is longer than we had hoped, users
> will
> > ultimately benefit greatly by the architectural model used by AB
> that
> > allows the data files to be readily updated independently of the
> product
> > itself.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > Rob Bowes (rob@w...) (650) 588-8252
> > Lone Wolf Development
> www.wolflair.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, email
>
> armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
 
--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Helmut Grunther"
<conjob_76@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Yes. I clearly stated in my last post that I blamed myself for not
> researching the nature of this software.
>
> That said, I should not, as a consumer, be expected to follow
every
> link on the webpage before buying the software.

That is just a total load of BS. It is the responsibility of EVERY
consumer to make an informed decision before he buys ANYTHING, be it
a new automobile or a soda pop. It is your fault that you purchased
something that didn't meet your expectations because you were to
lazy to investigate. The facts were there to be had just a mouse
click or two away. Rob sure wasn't standing behind you forcing you
to buy something.

So if you really feel that Rob has wronged you, then take it up with
the BBB. I'm sure they'll get a good laugh out of it as they tell
you exactly the same thing I just did. If you're too lazy to check
out what you're buying, then you deserve what you get.
 
Hmm, perhaps it is time for everyone to move along. Vitriol rarely
solved anything and this thread is plenty long enough as it is.

On a more useful note the latest AB3 patch for Daemonhunters is up. Adds
in space marines, dread weapon options, warrior options, assorted rules
for allies, allied and inducted units, sorts out armour values not
displaying and a host of other minor issues.

Please report all errors, typos, wrong costs etc. to the AB40K3 group.
Some dread weapons are missing pending clarification of their legality
these days. Please note that since it uses the AB3 sm and ig files
errors there aren't necessarily my doing :) Bug reports on those go to
the same place. Of course any spurious units showing up in those files
is nothing to do with me either :)

I will endeavour to deal any reports ASAP, assuming real life and work
permit.

On a totally unrelated note I'd just like to say Rob that theAB3 user
interface keeps getting better. Having mislaid my DH codex I was
swapping between V2.2 and V3.0 checking rules etc. V2.2 really looks
clunky in comparison now and yet before V3 it was the best out there.

Congratulations on a job well done.

Cheers
--
Versif, Nightgoblin backstabber and all round coward, but nice with it.
Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire - whaddya mean, Robin Hood wasn't a goblin?
 
The issue with the data files is basically due to GW's stance on the
subject. In the early days of AB, GW did a lot of sword-rattling and
chest-beating in an effort to shut us down. By making sure AB is truly a
generic engine, and by not touching the data files ourselves for GW's
games, we stay adequately shielded from any legal action GW could take. The
moment that we touch the data files, we begin directly mucking with GW's
IP, and that exposes us to action from GW. Over the past half-dozen years,
we've made various overtures to GW in an attempt to resolve this issue so
that we CAN work on the data files without fear of litigation. Those
attempts have met with negligible interest within GW, as far as I'm aware.

The fact is that there are quite a few GW employees who swear by AB and
think that the whole situation is silly. But the corporate folks at the top
view AB as a threat in some way. Note that this position was held by GW
*LONG* before they ever released their IAL product, so it's not just a
matter of a competing product. And the IAL doesn't support any of GW's
other games, so AB provides a "complete" solution to GW's suite of games.
So AB doesn't compete with a GW product for any other games.

I would love to work out some sort of official arrangement with GW. But the
ball, as has always been the case, is in their court.

-Rob

At 10:15 PM 1/29/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>That said, have you guys considered just expanding your Staff to
>include one or two salaried employees to build the datafiles? Your
>product seems quite popular, so I can only assume that your company
>could afford it and it'd do wonders for the software.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
 
I am about sick of this crap I am hearing. We sometimes buy product that is not the way we would like it. Maybe, some of you should get off your high horses and think before you shallow your feet. AB is not perfect...close:) But, sometimes people who are just starting a hobby buy before knowing the pro and cons of the hobby eg. GW sub-standard software. Some people do not know that the data files are not from AB but from hard working hobbists. Hope some of you never buy from me. As I would tell you, that the hundreds of thousands you just spent on a house is your fault if something was wrong. Maybe you should have asked me the right questions...why should I be responible for your well being. WHY? Cause that is what I get paid for. And I hope you and your friends keep coming back again and again.

My 2 cents worth...


Gord Oakes

Sutton Group - Canwest
www.gothomes.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: ghazhkull_thraka
To: armybuilder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it



--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Helmut Grunther"
<conjob_76@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Yes. I clearly stated in my last post that I blamed myself for not
> researching the nature of this software.
>
> That said, I should not, as a consumer, be expected to follow
every
> link on the webpage before buying the software.

That is just a total load of BS. It is the responsibility of EVERY
consumer to make an informed decision before he buys ANYTHING, be it
a new automobile or a soda pop. It is your fault that you purchased
something that didn't meet your expectations because you were to
lazy to investigate. The facts were there to be had just a mouse
click or two away. Rob sure wasn't standing behind you forcing you
to buy something.

So if you really feel that Rob has wronged you, then take it up with
the BBB. I'm sure they'll get a good laugh out of it as they tell
you exactly the same thing I just did. If you're too lazy to check
out what you're buying, then you deserve what you get.





To unsubscribe from this group, email

armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
> Note that this
> position was held by GW
> *LONG* before they ever released their IAL product,
> so it's not just a
> matter of a competing product. And the IAL doesn't
> support any of GW's
> other games, so AB provides a "complete" solution to
> GW's suite of games.
> So AB doesn't compete with a GW product for any
> other games.
>
> I would love to work out some sort of official
> arrangement with GW. But the
> ball, as has always been the case, is in their
> court.

I think GWs issue has been that the data files would
hone in on sales for their codexes and
armybooks...Well, that and corporate America is always
afraid of releasing rights to ANYTHING, especially if
they're not making money off of it...

If it's mostly the former you two might inquire about
a trial effort with their "Specialist Games" lines
since they now have moved all of the refference
material over to the web page...There wouldn't be any
concern over loss of sales and it would give you a
chance to prove you're not trying to step on their toes...

=====




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
 
You're far from the only one who's fed up of it.

Rob and Helmut who has the issue with AB are probably the only two people
having a DECENT discussion on this subject
without name calling, insulting or belittling.
Helmut has already said it's his fault for not reading the T&C and doing his
homework.
Rob has done his part and offered the refund if he wants it.
Shouting at Helmut really isn't going to encourage him to continue using AB3
and this whole discussion thread does
nothing but down play the usual good value of this group.
(If I hadn't already used it, I certainly wouldn't want to start using AB
after reading all this.)
So think about how your anger is affecting WolfLair's reputation. You may
think your right behind Rob, giving him
all your support, but from my perspective, well... lets just say it looks
FAR from professional.
(yes... i KNOW this isn't their customer support, but I got here from their
site.. so I'd expect a lot of potential customers "doing their homework"
would do the same.

So how about everyone get off the bandwagon and go back to regular
discussions and problem solving?

(plus, my mailbox needs emptying daily... and that's annoying enough on its
own).



_____

From: Darkimages [mailto:darkimages@shaw.ca]
Sent: 31 January 2005 09:31
To: ab@support.wolflair.com
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it



I am about sick of this crap I am hearing. We sometimes buy product that is
not the way we would like it. Maybe, some of you should get off your high
horses and think before you shallow your feet. AB is not perfect...close:)
But, sometimes people who are just starting a hobby buy before knowing the
pro and cons of the hobby eg. GW sub-standard software. Some people do not
know that the data files are not from AB but from hard working hobbists.
Hope some of you never buy from me. As I would tell you, that the hundreds
of thousands you just spent on a house is your fault if something was wrong.
Maybe you should have asked me the right questions...why should I be
responible for your well being. WHY? Cause that is what I get paid for. And
I hope you and your friends keep coming back again and again.

My 2 cents worth...


Gord Oakes

Sutton Group - Canwest
www.gothomes.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: ghazhkull_thraka
To: armybuilder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [AB] I Wish I never bought it



--- In armybuilder@yahoogroups.com, "Helmut Grunther"
<conjob_76@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Yes. I clearly stated in my last post that I blamed myself for not
> researching the nature of this software.
>
> That said, I should not, as a consumer, be expected to follow
every
> link on the webpage before buying the software.

That is just a total load of BS. It is the responsibility of EVERY
consumer to make an informed decision before he buys ANYTHING, be it
a new automobile or a soda pop. It is your fault that you purchased
something that didn't meet your expectations because you were to
lazy to investigate. The facts were there to be had just a mouse
click or two away. Rob sure wasn't standing behind you forcing you
to buy something.

So if you really feel that Rob has wronged you, then take it up with
the BBB. I'm sure they'll get a good laugh out of it as they tell
you exactly the same thing I just did. If you're too lazy to check
out what you're buying, then you deserve what you get.





To unsubscribe from this group, email

armybuilder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
In the past, GWs official complaint was always that they lost sales of army
books due to AB. This always flew in the face of constant statements by
RETAILERS (i.e. the folks who sell GW as a living) that AB encouraged
gamers to experiment with new armies and alomst always resulted in MORE
sales of GW product for them. So I always guessed it was really just a
rationalized smokescreen to cover the real reason, which I assumed was just
simple indignation that anyone would develop a product that might make a
tiny bit of money indirectly from GW's products. But then GW refused to
even consider a licensing relationship, so the bottom line is that I have
*NO* real idea what GW's true objections were/are regarding AB.

I have no familiarity with the "Specialist Games" lines you're referring
to. When GW instituted their internet retailer crackdown years ago in an
attempt to capture most internet sales for themselves, I finally got fed up
with GW's corporate philosophies. So I haven't bought a single GW product
for myself in years. You imply that GW now publishes all its army books
online, which I find amazing. Please fill me in on your idea so that I can
investigate it further (offline might be best to avoid cluttering up this
list further).

-Rob

At 05:59 AM 1/31/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>I think GWs issue has been that the data files would
>hone in on sales for their codexes and
>armybooks...Well, that and corporate America is always
>afraid of releasing rights to ANYTHING, especially if
>they're not making money off of it...
>
>If it's mostly the former you two might inquire about
>a trial effort with their "Specialist Games" lines
>since they now have moved all of the refference
>material over to the web page...There wouldn't be any
>concern over loss of sales and it would give you a
>chance to prove you're not trying to step on their toes...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
 
After years of shelling out hard earned money to GW and the pice hiking that they have continued to imploy upon the gaming world. I have moved to more historic games such as FOW and found that FOW atleast has a game engine that is not so scewed to new releases. Thus finding any army even base armies competitive. Moving to different gaming systems is the real reson for Ab. But if you feel the need to punished by GW please continued to devest your money in a system that is no longer interested in gaming or story(like the old days of GW) and only interested in becoming th Microsoft of the gaming industry. As for me, that holds absolutlly no appeal, GW has turned its back up on the hardcore gamers and is just aiming at the kids that really don't have the money to afford such a game.

THNX
Yeshua A. Hayes

Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
In the past, GWs official complaint was always that they lost sales of army
books due to AB. This always flew in the face of constant statements by
RETAILERS (i.e. the folks who sell GW as a living) that AB encouraged
gamers to experiment with new armies and alomst always resulted in MORE
sales of GW product for them. So I always guessed it was really just a
rationalized smokescreen to cover the real reason, which I assumed was just
simple indignation that anyone would develop a product that might make a
tiny bit of money indirectly from GW's products. But then GW refused to
even consider a licensing relationship, so the bottom line is that I have
*NO* real idea what GW's true objections were/are regarding AB.

I have no familiarity with the "Specialist Games" lines you're referring
to. When GW instituted their internet retailer crackdown years ago in an
attempt to capture most internet sales for themselves, I finally got fed up
with GW's corporate philosophies. So I haven't bought a single GW product
for myself in years. You imply that GW now publishes all its army books
online, which I find amazing. Please fill me in on your idea so that I can
investigate it further (offline might be best to avoid cluttering up this
list further).

-Rob

At 05:59 AM 1/31/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>I think GWs issue has been that the data files would
>hone in on sales for their codexes and
>armybooks...Well, that and corporate America is always
>afraid of releasing rights to ANYTHING, especially if
>they're not making money off of it...
>
>If it's mostly the former you two might inquire about
>a trial effort with their "Specialist Games" lines
>since they now have moved all of the refference
>material over to the web page...There wouldn't be any
>concern over loss of sales and it would give you a
>chance to prove you're not trying to step on their toes...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com



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ƒwƒCƒY@•ŽåˆŸ


__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
The Specialist Games are Necromunda, Mordhiem, BFG, Blood Bowl and
Inquistor. Which they now have living rulebooks on the website so
people can just download them and play the games. You can still by the
rulebooks in book form as well. But it allows people to decide if they
like the game before they actually fork out money for it. I was
suprised when GW headed this route but it does make sense.


On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:30:08 -0800, Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
>
> In the past, GWs official complaint was always that they lost sales of army
> books due to AB. This always flew in the face of constant statements by
> RETAILERS (i.e. the folks who sell GW as a living) that AB encouraged
> gamers to experiment with new armies and alomst always resulted in MORE
> sales of GW product for them. So I always guessed it was really just a
> rationalized smokescreen to cover the real reason, which I assumed was just
> simple indignation that anyone would develop a product that might make a
> tiny bit of money indirectly from GW's products. But then GW refused to
> even consider a licensing relationship, so the bottom line is that I have
> *NO* real idea what GW's true objections were/are regarding AB.
>
> I have no familiarity with the "Specialist Games" lines you're referring
> to. When GW instituted their internet retailer crackdown years ago in an
> attempt to capture most internet sales for themselves, I finally got fed up
> with GW's corporate philosophies. So I haven't bought a single GW product
> for myself in years. You imply that GW now publishes all its army books
> online, which I find amazing. Please fill me in on your idea so that I can
> investigate it further (offline might be best to avoid cluttering up this
> list further).
>
> -Rob
>
> At 05:59 AM 1/31/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >I think GWs issue has been that the data files would
> >hone in on sales for their codexes and
> >armybooks...Well, that and corporate America is always
> >afraid of releasing rights to ANYTHING, especially if
> >they're not making money off of it...
> >
> >If it's mostly the former you two might inquire about
> >a trial effort with their "Specialist Games" lines
> >since they now have moved all of the refference
> >material over to the web page...There wouldn't be any
> >concern over loss of sales and it would give you a
> >chance to prove you're not trying to step on their toes...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
> Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
>
>
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The Specialist Games are Necromunda, Mordhiem, BFG, Blood Bowl and
Inquistor. Which they now have living rulebooks on the website so
people can just download them and play the games. You can still by the
rulebooks in book form as well. But it allows people to decide if they
like the game before they actually fork out money for it. I was
suprised when GW headed this route but it does make sense.


On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:30:08 -0800, Rob Bowes <rob@wolflair.com> wrote:
>
> In the past, GWs official complaint was always that they lost sales of army
> books due to AB. This always flew in the face of constant statements by
> RETAILERS (i.e. the folks who sell GW as a living) that AB encouraged
> gamers to experiment with new armies and alomst always resulted in MORE
> sales of GW product for them. So I always guessed it was really just a
> rationalized smokescreen to cover the real reason, which I assumed was just
> simple indignation that anyone would develop a product that might make a
> tiny bit of money indirectly from GW's products. But then GW refused to
> even consider a licensing relationship, so the bottom line is that I have
> *NO* real idea what GW's true objections were/are regarding AB.
>
> I have no familiarity with the "Specialist Games" lines you're referring
> to. When GW instituted their internet retailer crackdown years ago in an
> attempt to capture most internet sales for themselves, I finally got fed up
> with GW's corporate philosophies. So I haven't bought a single GW product
> for myself in years. You imply that GW now publishes all its army books
> online, which I find amazing. Please fill me in on your idea so that I can
> investigate it further (offline might be best to avoid cluttering up this
> list further).
>
> -Rob
>
> At 05:59 AM 1/31/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> >I think GWs issue has been that the data files would
> >hone in on sales for their codexes and
> >armybooks...Well, that and corporate America is always
> >afraid of releasing rights to ANYTHING, especially if
> >they're not making money off of it...
> >
> >If it's mostly the former you two might inquire about
> >a trial effort with their "Specialist Games" lines
> >since they now have moved all of the refference
> >material over to the web page...There wouldn't be any
> >concern over loss of sales and it would give you a
> >chance to prove you're not trying to step on their toes...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rob Bowes (rob@wolflair.com) (650) 588-8252
> Lone Wolf Development www.wolflair.com
>
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