How to add a chooser for a school ability?

[EightBitz]

Trying to add a Class Special, in the editor, to allow a player to choose a school ability.

Looking at the editor, there's an option to add expressions for selection lists. For the first selection, I can choose "Schools". That's easy enough. For the second selection, I have no idea what to do. None of the options in the "Second Selection From..." list give me what I'm looking for, and I'm not sure what kind of custom expression I might be able to add.

A bit of debugging showed me that there are lesser abilities and greater abilities, but those tags don't relate to the selected school. So, I'm not really sure where to go from here.

(Yes, I'm taking a crack at the Warlock Class, but this is my first time creating a class, so don't get too excited.)

 

[EightBitz]

So, I was able to get the list I wanted, only to discover that the abilities themselves don't identify their level. I would either have to modify each ability, or duplicate and modify, or I would have to figure out a way to query every school and see at what level it bootstraps each ability, then somehow script that in to determine which abilities are valid at which levels.

That last bit, especially, is more trouble than it's worth to me, and I'm not too excited about the other options either. So, that's that.

 

[Aaron]

I'd do something like the eldritch scion, bootstrap a configurable, add the school to said configurable, then disable whichever bootstrapped school abilities need disabling.

 

[EightBitz]

I'd do something like the eldritch scion, bootstrap a configurable, add the school to said configurable, then disable whichever bootstrapped school abilities need disabling.

That wouldn't solve my problem. A Warlock gets to choose items from a list of school abilities. The items they choose cannot exceed their level. For instance, "Energy Absorption" (from the Abjuration school) should not be available until 6th level, and "Dimensional Steps" (from the Conjuration school) should not be available until 8th level.

But if I look at either of those things on their own, there's nothing to indicate what level abilities they are. That is only determined by the bootstrap conditions specified within their associated schools.

 

[EightBitz]

Also, they don't get automatically get all the 1st level abilities at first level and all the 8th level abilities at 8th level. When they have an opportunity for a new ability, they have to pick which one they want.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Also, they don't get automatically get all the 1st level abilities at first level and all the 8th level abilities at 8th level. When they have an opportunity for a new ability, they have to pick which one they want.

Reading this quickly this sounds exactly the same as Rage Powers, Rogue Talents, Alchemist Discoveries etc. You build these as Custom Abilities in the editor and then setup the class "Custom Abilites" to control at what level the gamer can make a choice.

Then each new Custom Ability Thing has a pre-req that controls the level requirement.

Another example if you want to see the whole class at once is the Soulknife from the community Pack. It gets Blade Skills as choices.

 

[EightBitz]

Reading this quickly this sounds exactly the same as Rage Powers, Rogue Talents, Alchemist Discoveries etc. You build these as Custom Abilities in the editor and then setup the class "Custom Abilites" to control at what level the gamer can make a choice.

Then each new Custom Ability Thing has a pre-req that controls the level requirement.

Another example if you want to see the whole class at once is the Soulknife from the community Pack. It gets Blade Skills as choices.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I just didn't want to have duplicate all those items.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Yeah, that's what I figured. I just didn't want to have duplicate all those items.

Why do you need to duplicate stuff when you are adding new Things?

 

[EightBitz]

Why do you need to duplicate stuff when you are adding new Things?

Conceptually, I'm not adding new things. Unless I'm reading it wrong, the Warlock is able to select school abilities from Arcane schools. For example, the Abjuration school specifies the following abilities:
Resistance
Protective Ward
Energy Absorption

The Conjuration school specifies the following abilities:
Summoner's Charm
Acid Dart
Dimensional Steps

I'll stick with those two just for the sake of example. So at first level, a Warlock can select two school abilities from that list, excluding Dimensional Steps, because that's an 8th level ability.

So, at first level, from those two schools, I want to list all the abilities that do not have a level restriction.

Those abilities already exist within the Hero Lab product. What they lack, so far as I can tell, is some self-contained indication of their level. So if I loaded up Dimensional Step, there is nothing within its definition that indicates it's an 8th level ability.

If I load up the Conjuration School, I can see that Dimensional Steps is bootstrapped with a condition for 8th level, but that's the only indication I can find that it's an 8th level ability.

If, on the other hand, I duplicate Dimensional Step, and add some field or tag or value or something that indicates it's an 8th level ability, then I'll able (I'm assuming) to build an expression to include abilities appropriate for the Warlock's level.

 

[EightBitz]

Or, now that I think of it, and maybe this is what you were trying to say, instead of building just one instance of the ability selection, I can create multiple instances, one for each level where the Warlock gets to choose an ability, and build a different expression for each instance. That would actually work out better.

EDIT: Sorry. I can be a bit thick at times. It looks like that was indeed what you were trying to say.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Conceptually, I'm not adding new things.

You are actually adding new things. Instead of calling these Warlock Abilities Schools I am going to call them "Eldritch Heritages" and each Eldritch Heritage contains 3 Eldritch Powers. I am going to call them this because they are NOT schools of magic as HL or normal PF1 rules see them. They are just using a existing name for a brand new set of rules.

So each Eldritch Heritage has three Eldritch Power choices that require level 4th, 12th and 16th level:

For example, the Abjuration school specifies the following abilities:
Resistance
Protective Ward
Energy Absorption

Each of these Eldritch Powers is a separate Thing you will code into the editor as a Custom Ability. Each one will have its own Level Requirement and script logic. Each will have its own unique ID even. They have NO relationship to the existing Schools of magic in HL.

You end up with three different Custom Abilities with Unique IDs of say: cWarResistance, cWarProtectiveWar & cWarEnergyAbsorpt. These are then setup to the Primary Ability table of your new class with the first option being allowed to select at level 1 then 2 etc.


Of course none of the above can be taken at level 1 or 2 so you have to make a new Custom Ability called "Cantrip" with out any level requirement that is set to Uniqueness "NO". This allows this choice to be taken many times. This ability will increase the number of allowed cantrips the Warlock can take each time its selected.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

 

[EightBitz]

You are actually adding new things. Instead of calling these Warlock Abilities Schools I am going to call them "Eldritch Heritages" and each Eldritch Heritage contains 3 Eldritch Powers. I am going to call them this because they are NOT schools of magic as HL or normal PF1 rules see them. They are just using a existing name for a brand new set of rules.

So each Eldritch Heritage has three Eldritch Power choices that require level 4th, 12th and 16th level:

Each of these Eldritch Powers is a separate Thing you will code into the editor as a Custom Ability. Each one will have its own Level Requirement and script logic. Each will have its own unique ID even. They have NO relationship to the existing Schools of magic in HL.

You end up with three different Custom Abilities with Unique IDs of say: cWarResistance, cWarProtectiveWar & cWarEnergyAbsorpt. These are then setup to the Primary Ability table of your new class with the first option being allowed to select at level 1 then 2 etc.
View attachment 6098

Of course none of the above can be taken at level 1 or 2 so you have to make a new Custom Ability called "Cantrip" with out any level requirement that is set to Uniqueness "NO". This allows this choice to be taken many times. This ability will increase the number of allowed cantrips the Warlock can take each time its selected.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

I think we're talking past each other, so I'm going to back up a bit to make sure I'm being clear. Putting aside, just for a moment, Hero Lab's structure, The Tome of Secrets specifies the following:

School Ability: The warlock does not cast spells. Instead, he is infused with supernatural energy that allows him to perform magical powers at will. At 1st level, the warlock may select two school abilities; he also gains new school abilities at higher levels (see the warlock table).

The very next paragraph clarifies:

School abilities come from the arcane school lists in The Pathfnder Roleplaying Game.

So that's telling me the abilities available to the Warlock already exist in Pathfinder's core rules.

Now, going back to Hero Lab, the specified abilities exist in the core Pathfinder package. You're suggesting that I create these as custom abilities for the Warlock class.

You asked me earlier why I would have to duplicate things to create them as custom abilities. My answer to that question is so I don't have to rebuild them from scratch. These abilities are already defined within Hero Lab. Any required scripting logic is already there. Any required tags are already there. By duplicating them, I don't have to redo all that work. I only have to define how the Warlock acquires the abilities. Everything else is already done.

 

[EightBitz]

To illustrate this, open up Pathfinder in Hero Lab, and create a Wizard of, just for example, 8th level.

On the Wizard tab, before adding any schools or spells or anything, click the "Special Abilities" button. You'll see one ability in there: "Scribe Scroll".

Now, click on "Add more Specialized Schools", and pick "Conjuration" (again, just for illustration). Click "Add & Close" to finalize the selection.

Now click on "Special Abilities" again. You'll see three additional abilities. Those are the ones that Warlocks get to choose from (each school has a different list) whenever they pick a new ability. The way I'm reading it, a Warlock doesn't pick a school. Rather, they get to pick any ability from any arcane school, so long as they have the requisite caster level.

So, those are the abilities I would be duplicating to customize them for a Warlock class.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

So that's telling me the abilities available to the Warlock already exist in Pathfinder's core rules.

I disagree 100%. These are special Warlock abilities that have nothing in common with Magic Shools other than sharing a name. So when I increase the DC of a School of Magic it affects these powers? If I increase the caster level of a school of magic it affects these powers?

You asked me earlier why I would have to duplicate things to create them as custom abilities. My answer to that question is so I don't have to rebuild them from scratch. These abilities are already defined within Hero Lab. Any required scripting logic is already there. Any required tags are already there. By duplicating them, I don't have to redo all that work. I only have to define how the Warlock acquires the abilities. Everything else is already done.

So HL already has the ability Arcane Grip listed on pg36 of the PDF?

Arcane Grip (Su): Any door, window, chest, or other opening with a lid that you touch remains locked as per the arcane lock spell. You must continue to touch the object in order for this effect to remain in place. Anything that can open an arcane lock can also foil this ability.

I don't see this ability in HL anywhere? This Arcane Grip ability from the Abjuration Eldritch Heritage has to be added/coded into HL. It has to be added as its own unique Thing so that a gamer can choose it. I don't see how this ability has anything to do with the Schools of Magic in HL. Its possible I missed something in the PDF as I am reading quick. But to me each ability is added new.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

To illustrate this, open up Pathfinder in Hero Lab, and create a Wizard of, just for example, 8th level.

On the Wizard tab, before adding any schools or spells or anything, click the "Special Abilities" button. You'll see one ability in there: "Scribe Scroll".

Now, click on "Add more Specialized Schools", and pick "Conjuration" (again, just for illustration). Click "Add & Close" to finalize the selection.

Now click on "Special Abilities" again. You'll see three additional abilities. Those are the ones that Warlocks get to choose from (each school has a different list) whenever they pick a new ability. The way I'm reading it, a Warlock doesn't pick a school. Rather, they get to pick any ability from any arcane school, so long as they have the requisite caster level.

So, those are the abilities I would be duplicating to customize them for a Warlock class.

But they are not even close at all....

Core rules Conjuration school gives "Acid Dart" at level 1; "Summoner's Charm" at level 1; and "Dimensional Steps" at level 8. Also those levels NEVER change and are hard-coded.

The Warlock Conjuration school gives "Summon Monster" at 4th; "Combat Teleport" at 12th; "Phase Self" at 16th; and "Summoning Master" at level 20. These levels are pre-req NOT hard-coded meaning I can be 12th level and select the 4th level ability Summon Monster.

I am not seeing how these two Things are even remotely similar to each other except in the School name....

 

[EightBitz]

I disagree 100%. These are special Warlock abilities that have nothing in common with Magic Shools other than sharing a name. So when I increase the DC of a School of Magic it affects these powers? If I increase the caster level of a school of magic it affects these powers?


So HL already has the ability Arcane Grip listed on pg36 of the PDF?

Arcane Grip (Su): Any door, window, chest, or other opening with a lid that you touch remains locked as per the arcane lock spell. You must continue to touch the object in order for this effect to remain in place. Anything that can open an arcane lock can also foil this ability.

I don't see this ability in HL anywhere? This Arcane Grip ability from the Abjuration Eldritch Heritage has to be added/coded into HL. It has to be added as its own unique Thing so that a gamer can choose it. I don't see how this ability has anything to do with the Schools of Magic in HL. Its possible I missed something in the PDF as I am reading quick. But to me each ability is added new.

OK, I see where the confusion is now. In Tome of Secrets, it says:

In addition, the warlock may learn additional school abilities listed in this section. The warlock does not gain any specialist bonuses or bonus spells.

That bit about "In addition" means in addition to the ones defined in the Core Rulebook. So yes, there are some abilities being added, like Arcane Grip, but they're being added to the abilities already defined in the Core Rulebook.

 

[EightBitz]

Core rules Conjuration school gives "Acid Dart" at level 1; "Summoner's Charm" at level 1; and "Dimensional Steps" at level 8. Also those levels NEVER change and are hard-coded.

The levels aren't hard-coded. If you go into the editor, go to the Class tab, then to the Custom Ability tab, click on "New (Copy)", and load up "Conjuration (wsConjur)".

Look at the Bootstraps, and click on the Tags list for Dimensional Steps. You can change the level right there.

As for your other comment about the abilities being unbalanced ... Again, I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong. But with the words "In addition", I'm having a difficult time interpreting what else those words might mean.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

That bit about "In addition" means in addition to the ones defined in the Core Rulebook. So yes, there are some abilities being added, like Arcane Grip, but they're being added to the abilities already defined in the Core Rulebook.

Ok I did miss that!

So staying with Conjuration now what I said before for the NEW abilities is still true.

For where you can select these existing ability like Acid Dart you can reuse them but still requires making a new thing. You will make a new Custom Ability Thing called Acid Dart with a Pre-Req of level 1 of warlock. Then you will have to bootstrap the Class Ability Acid Dart thingid.cWizCoAcid to to your new Custom Ability. You will have to set it with the tag ClSpecWhen.1. This will allow the Acid Dart ability to correctly add itself to the Warlock class. On your Custom Ability you will want to give it the Helper.SpecUp tag so that it does not display Acid Dart twice on the Specials tab.

Even if a gamer takes Acid Dart at level 4 it will display as level 1. This is not an issue you can fix and the same issue I had with the Talented Monk that allowed choosing abilities at different levels.

So you still end up making new Things for each School of Magic but you can bootstrap the core ability so that you don't have to do all the scripting again.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

The levels aren't hard-coded. If you go into the editor, go to the Class tab, then to the Custom Ability tab, click on "New (Copy)", and load up "Conjuration (wsConjur)".

Look at the Bootstraps, and click on the Tags list for Dimensional Steps. You can change the level right there.

Hard-coded from the point of view of the gamer. The wizard gains these abilities at specific character levels always. You can not at level 8 gain the Acid Dart ability from Conjuration as its already present for wizards.

That is not how the Warlock class reads to me. At level 16 the Warlock can pick a single Conjuration ability from 1st to 16th level. They do not automatically get all those abilities like how a 16th level Wizard would get them all automatically.

 

[EightBitz]

Never mind. I misunderstood what you meant by hard-coded. For the Warlock none of the abilities are hard-coded. They're hard-coded for a Wizard, but not for a Warlock. A Warlock can select lower-level abilities, but not higher-level ones.