Hero Lab: Incomplete

[Paris.Crenshaw]

This is a great idea Lawful_g. As this is more complete type of add-on I could also setup a type of auto-download feature like we use for the d20 project.

If nothing else we can make a .hl import file instead so that the .por and .user files would get loaded easily. Though thinking about it a little more we could also probably get these to maybe be added officially which would make it even easier for everyone to get to.

I am already stretched too thin to really help with this but it would be great community thing to do. Made by the community for the community...

I agree, and I'd like to help with such a project. I also think that LW would need to be careful about accepting or automatically loading user created stuff. I'm not sure what their license allows and I also think they'd have to worry about quality control.

For example, one thing I've noticed in adding the Darkmoon Vale adventures is that I sometimes had to make compromises, based on what was possible and what made sense within the PFRPG rules. I'm pretty sure some of that has to do with how old the modules are, but there have still been some strange ones. For example, check out Lucimar, the "worg-bodied" wizard, who is listed as an Undead (augmented humanoid) and actually has a Con score. (Note: This is the PFRPG conversion, but it's a faithful text conversion that shows how much this guy breaks the rules...which HL doesn't do very well.)

At any rate, my point is that those of us who add new races, etc. from the APs should make note of strange situations and how we handled them, so that those who use these creatures can see the changes. The addition of "author notes" to the .user file entries can help immensely. A "readme.txt" file is helpful, too. I know Chava has done that with some of his files.

(For the record, my solution to Lucimar was to make him an actual worg and then add wizard levels, followed by the lich template. The "Faction Guide" refers to him as "Lucimar the Lich-Wolf", so I ran with it. )

 

[quixoticparadigm]

1. All data from all Pathfinder products. All monsters, feats, spells etc.

Well then get your update information from many of the community-inputed databases. Paizo comes out with a deluge of new material every month, and Lone Wolf probably doesn't have the manpower to do it all, even if they get some of the material early. Let's face it this is a very specific market with room for growth, but probably not at the rates you see in other sectors.

2. Complete tactical control over your combats including auto tracking of effects and total rounds. Automatically adjusting the stats per effect as they are active and later inactive. This includes all buffs/debuffs/spells/conditions/etc/etc.

You can already do most of these things in the "Adjust / Conditions / Spells" tabs. Yeah, maybe you can't keep your number of rounds, but I'm sure you'll see it implemented sometime in the future.

3. Able to read the data in each of the columns in the main window, too much info gets cut-off. Just seems very cheaply done. The overall UI needs improvement including where the tactical console shows up in relation to the main window. The fonts and overall look could also use a slight update.

Print out a PDF of your character sheet and tell it to include everything you want. While Hero Lab can be used in game, it's main focus is to build characters - and it is absolutely wonderful at that. And I see people bring their laptops to tables more and more (myself included), but I'm starting to hop on the bandwagon that you need to have a printed sheet in front of you and you can keep your computer to the side. Hero Lab is a great resource for character creation, but is terribly distracting for GMs and other players if you're sitting there with a laptop in front of you. Not to mention if your GM wants to look over your character sheet, it is a hassle to look if you don't have a PDF / printed copy available.

Lone Wolf puts out amazing products and fill a very big void in the tabletop gaming world. While not everything is put in yet, they work tirelessly to give us most excellent resources to enhance our gaming experiences. If you are disappointed by Hero Lab, then you must not be using the same program that I am.

 

[dartnet]

Let's put this in perspective sense last Gen Con Lone Wolf has inputted all most all of the material from the following books:

Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Magic
Pathfinder Bestiary 2
Adventurer's Armory
Elves of Golarion
Dwarves of Golarion
Gnomes of Golarion
Orcs of Golarion
Halflings of Golarion
Humans of Golarion
Osirion, Land of the Pharaohs
Taldor, Echoes of Glory
Qadira, Gateway to the East
Cheliax, Empire of Devils
Andoran, Spirit of Liberty
Sargava, the Lost Colony
Classic Monsters Revisited
Guide to Darkmoon Vale
Gods & Magic
Into the Darklands
Dark Markets: A Guide to Katapesh
Book of the Damned Volume 1: Princes of Darkness
Cities of Golarion
Classic Horrors Revisited
Guide to the River Kingdoms
Classic Treasures Revisted
Faction Guide
Heart of the Jungle
City of Strangers
Misfit Monsters Redeemed
Book of the Damned Volume 2: Lords of Chaos
Lost Cities of Golarion
the Rival Guide
Undead Revisited
The GM Guide
The Inner Sea World Guide
Inner Sea Primer
and the NPC Guide

Add to that the players material from the adventure paths, and material from the PIZO blog!

All the while adding errata.

And by Gen Con you can add the first batch of stuff from Ultimate Combat.

I don't want to sound like a jerk BUT thats more material than most major game companies put out in 3 to 5 years!

Yes there are holes and they will get filled.

 

[chiefweasel]

I agree. HL is really for charcaters with some GM functions. It seems though that if you add options for changing the characters and things like that, then you take away the playing of the character from the player. The player really should be the one tracking what happens to their character, otherwise, what are they doing?

 

[Dgrm44]

I agree. HL is really for charcaters with some GM functions. It seems though that if you add options for changing the characters and things like that, then you take away the playing of the character from the player. The player really should be the one tracking what happens to their character, otherwise, what are they doing?

I could not DISAGREE MORE with this sentiment. Even if this were true, if HL would track everything for you that doesnt mean everyone has to use that feature, but those of us that WOULD USE IT it would be there for us. I also think that MOST ALL GMs would use this feature if it was implemented correctly.

 

[Dwayne]

I know there have been many books they have put into Herolab and that is great but they did not do it for free. They were paid to do it. I/we paid them for their efforts. I just want the long unfinished or not implemented feats, etc. to be finished. Every new book put into Herolab just leaves more unfinished work. There are things from the core rulebook that are not finished. I LOVE Herolab and think they are doing a great job but unfinished work needs to get finished.

 

[Kendall-DM]

My take on things like this is as follows. There are more than a few people out there that are proficient programmers (myself included) that would be willing to get unfinished or unimplemented parts of HL working as intended. And do it for free. We all have a vested interest in the product doing well, and to tell the truth, I had long considered using a XML database for my game, but I never got around to it. HL is the perfect fit of flexibility and expansiveness simply because XML is just that. However, too many things happen behind the scenes that are not working correctly, and they are difficult, if not impossible, to implement workarounds for until an appropriate patch comes out. I would be more than willing to do directed coding for free, just to get 3.5 rules up to date and more inclusive to the process. The more I learn about this program the more I like it, BUT the more I learn the more poorly written pieces of the program I come across. I understand this probably started as a project among a tight group of people (or a person singularly), and thus there is alot of legacy code that is badly implemented or not fully implemented at all. I know that I, as well as others, would be more than happy to improve the product and make it into the product the consumer would like to see.

By the way, what is LW's take on third party software working with HL? I'm really thinking about implementing a tactical console of my own that just references the HL files complete with trackers and spell/special ability popups, not to mention better weapon attack listings. I don't want to embark on such a product without knowing where I stand though.

 

[Lawful_g]

I've been working on this for myself. Everything works fine, but my first stab at skills (transferring the class skills of the creature to the currently advanced HD) has been road blocked a bit, and I've resolved to return to it later when I have other things implemented. Did you get the skills to do this, just out of curiousity?

Also, how have you been implementing your HD, as a monster class or as a regular class? I've been playing around with the idea of templating, but thus far only as a mental exercise. Thanks!

I add the extra skill points to the racial skill column so I don't have to transfer the known skills at all.

 

[Kendall-DM]

I add the extra skill points to the racial skill column so I don't have to transfer the known skills at all.

That's pretty brilliant. However, when I work on this again in the near future, I will still try to transfer the class skills to the new HD. A few ideas have already occured to me, that I'm pretty sure will work.

 

[Unseelie]

I know there have been many books they have put into Herolab and that is great but they did not do it for free. They were paid to do it. I/we paid them for their efforts. I just want the long unfinished or not implemented feats, etc. to be finished. Every new book put into Herolab just leaves more unfinished work. There are things from the core rulebook that are not finished. I LOVE Herolab and think they are doing a great job but unfinished work needs to get finished.

Such as?

Maybe instead of shaking your fist at them, you could say which item or items you want. Who knows, maybe someone else has done the work and you can just add their .user file.

Is there a comprehensive list of incomplete and not yet implemented items for the Pathfinder data set?

For stuff like monsters from the Adventure Paths, I don't think that's likely to ever be a priority for Lone Wolf... as there's a fair chance that they'll show up in a future Bestiary.

For the ones that don't, like the Schirim in 'Howl of the Carrion King', chances are someone else will do it. (In this particular case, I have...) But where do we share stuff like this?

Finally, tangential issue and perhaps it should be in a thread of its own... but do you guys really need to lock down everything from the Bestiary & Bestiary 2? I know you don't want people stripping out and sharing the data files but it makes adding new critters a pain in the ass, as there's very little I can copy and then build off of. I can understand locking down Product ID, but OGL critters?

 

[Mathias]

Finally, tangential issue and perhaps it should be in a thread of its own... but do you guys really need to lock down everything from the Bestiary & Bestiary 2? I know you don't want people stripping out and sharing the data files but it makes adding new critters a pain in the ass, as there's very little I can copy and then build off of. I can understand locking down Product ID, but OGL critters?

Have you tried opening two copies of Hero Lab - open an editor in each, with the original in one and the new material in the other - that'll hopefully make it easier to use one thing as a reference while making another.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

By the way, what is LW's take on third party software working with HL? I'm really thinking about implementing a tactical console of my own that just references the HL files complete with trackers and spell/special ability popups, not to mention better weapon attack listings. I don't want to embark on such a product without knowing where I stand though.

Someone already did this. Or at least some of it. Its called Combat Manager and is capable of pulling in HL .por files.

I agree, and I'd like to help with such a project. I also think that LW would need to be careful about accepting or automatically loading user created stuff. I'm not sure what their license allows and I also think they'd have to worry about quality control.

They do or don't just means if we share it to the community is all. But the idea is that no matter what some things will have bugs. Its the nature of the software development. Though a good area for someone that can't use the editor would be QA testing would be a way to help out still. Some one makes the creatures and sends it to someone else to at least go over. Still means something can slip through but it lessens it greatly.

At any rate, my point is that those of us who add new races, etc. from the APs should make note of strange situations and how we handled them, so that those who use these creatures can see the changes. The addition of "author notes" to the .user file entries can help immensely. A "readme.txt" file is helpful, too. I know Chava has done that with some of his files.

Their is a built in feature of the .user files to store Author, Version History, and a to-do list. You can find this in the editor under the VIEW menu.

 

[Paris.Crenshaw]

I need to apologize for the lack of clarity in my previous posting.

They do or don't just means if we share it to the community is all. But the idea is that no matter what some things will have bugs. Its the nature of the software development. Though a good area for someone that can't use the editor would be QA testing would be a way to help out still. Some one makes the creatures and sends it to someone else to at least go over. Still means something can slip through but it lessens it greatly.

I agree. I was mainly responding to what I thought to be a suggestion that LW allow users to input data which they would then include in their offical updates. To me, that would raise questions about licensing and QA.

Their is a built in feature of the .user files to store Author, Version History, and a to-do list. You can find this in the editor under the VIEW menu.

Those are the features I was referring to. My understanding is that this was a recent addition. They're a big help for folks working on community content. (Unfortunately, I didn't make it clear in my statement that I was aware of them. )

 

[Duggan]

I can speak from experience with Mutants and Masterminds that it depends on the licensing. Green Ronin has authorized to Lone Wolf to officially distribute any of their books (as well as their artwork!) as a product and I'm pretty sure they get royalties one way or the other with each sale. I don't know what the license with Paizo is like. Matthias is probably more likely to be of help there.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

I don't know what the license with Paizo is like.

Paizo runs under a very generous OGL and officially their CUP (Community Use Policy) which is very open actually. Pretty much they print it it can be shared except for any of the images (and even some of those) and key words. Like the goddess Sarenrae can't be shared but the The Goddess of Sun and Healing would be fine.

This is how things like the d20pfsrd and the Pathfinderwiki sites can exist. With the use of both of those sites you get 100% of all Paizo material and its out their for free. So having data sets of say their monsters from the back of the AP's would work the same way. Assuming that is what we are talking about. Been really busy and just skimming over the posts today. So hopefully I am on the same page as everyone else.

I need to apologize for the lack of clarity in my previous posting.

No problem at all. Been reading posts very very quickly so it could also be me not spending the time to fully read..

 

[Kendall-DM]

Someone already did this. Or at least some of it. Its called Combat Manager and is capable of pulling in HL .por files.

I have attempted using this program. Unfortunately, when I do, it can't recognize the .por files I attempt to upload, so I have no idea if CM is a good product or not. Secondly, CM isn't the most user friendly of UIs, and navigation can be a pain. Honestly, I didn't search out a reason why my .por files wouldn't load, I just didn't have any success and decided to dump it for not working.

 

[ShadowChemosh]

Ah well. I had not had time to try it out myself so that is disappointing to hear actually. I had been hopefully after my current campaign where I switch 100% to pathfinder rules that it would work.

 

[Asandir]

I have attempted using this program. Unfortunately, when I do, it can't recognize the .por files I attempt to upload, so I have no idea if CM is a good product or not. Secondly, CM isn't the most user friendly of UIs, and navigation can be a pain. Honestly, I didn't search out a reason why my .por files wouldn't load, I just didn't have any success and decided to dump it for not working.

I use it and love it for what it does. With regard to the .por files, since you are having trouble with the files loading, I would suggest sending them to the developer, as he is pretty responsive. I've sent him a couple of versions of my .por files and he has resolved the issues with the import. He's combatman at kyleolson dot com.

He continues to develop the program, and I'm sure he'd welcome feedback about the program as well.

Just my two cents on the subject. Also somewhere on the paizo boards there is an ongoing discussion of the program which is where he hangs out and on top of that I know that Rob or Colen had said that they had interviewed him for a position at one time with LWD as well.

 

[Adam.Ormond]

I just downloaded the Combat Manager application, and I'm duly impressed. It's leaps and bounds better than the tactical console built into Hero Lab. It supports multi-selection and application of damage, healing, and conditions to all characters selected. For example, you can select 5 of 10 characters in the combat, click to apply damage, enter one value, and then use checkboxes to indicate whether they saved for half! It also tracks durations of all applied effects. And allows you to set conditions, spell adjustments, etc as favorites, so they're quickly accessible through the context menus. It has a built in die roller, and when it works correctly (which is most of the time), you can right click a character and choose Roll->Attacks->WeaponName and it will parse the attack text in the stat block and roll it.

I've imported about 10 different portfolios, some with multiple heroes and minions, and CM has loaded them all fine. There've been a couple issues with its ability to parse some of the stat block information, but no show-stoppers.

All in all, I found the UI to be fantastically simple to navigate, considering the breadth of features it supports. I can't say I'm particularly fond of the color scheme that was chosen, and there are a few inconsistencies in button layout/placing, but it's certainly no worse than Hero Lab's UI.

 

[Unseelie]

Have you tried opening two copies of Hero Lab - open an editor in each, with the original in one and the new material in the other - that'll hopefully make it easier to use one thing as a reference while making another.

*smacks forehead*

No, it never even occurred to me. I come from the Mac world, so I just assumed you could only run one instance of Hero Lab at a time. I'd still rather be able to copy the file, but this is workable.

Thanks.