Hello, and a question on NPCs

[Aldaron]

Hi there from a newbie to HL (but enjoying it thoroughly!).

Just a quick question...I've searched for the answer on the forums, and not found anything, so I hope I'm not repeating a tired old saw.

I've been trying to recreate Antoine Savoy, from New Orleans, but I've found that I'm stuck when it comes to his Theban Sorcery levels. As an NPC, I can only add 1 dot of Theban Sorcery - there is no option to increase his level (ie: the left/right arrows are greyed out, and changing the number has it revert back to 1).

Of course, I can increase Theban Sorcery in a character by spending XP on advancements, but this option isn't available for NPCs. So I've gone and created Savoy from scratch as an experienced character, but it took quite a while.

Soooo...I was wondering if any combination of the following three things could be implemented in future releases:

1) Allow NPCs to be advanced by adding XP.
2) Allow Theban Sorcery levels to be increased when an NPC is given that discipline.
3) Allow advancements to be implemented from the actual statistic - that is, if I want to increase a character's Auspex stat, I can simply click on the arrow button and have the appropriate XP deleted from my XP total (rather than going through the advancements screen and four or five clicks for each dot's increase).

Oh...a fourth option just occurred to me, but I doubt this would be "implementable" - we have our custom data files, created in the editor, containing things like equipment, disciplines, etc. Would it be possible for the user to be able to edit the core elements? For example, if I could change the Theban Sorcery starting dots when applied to NPCs, it would sidestep the problem as well.

Cheers, guys, and thanks for a terrific bit of software!

Regards,

Al.

 

[resplendenthawk]

I raise my hand to agree with your points, especially 1 and 3.

 

[rob]

At 08:26 PM 12/14/2007, you wrote:

I've been trying to recreate Antoine Savoy, from New Orleans, but I've found that I'm stuck when it comes to his Theban Sorcery levels. As an NPC, I can only add 1 dot of Theban Sorcery - there is no option to increase his level (ie: the left/right arrows are greyed out, and changing the number has it revert back to 1).

Doh! That's an oversight. NPCs should not be restricted on their starting dots. I'll get that fixed.

1) Allow NPCs to be advanced by adding XP.

When I setup the files, I considered this and couldn't figure out any reason why it would make sense to do so. Perhaps I was wrong. Please give me some scenarios under which it would be important to be able to do this. If there's a sound reasoning behind it, things can be re-worked to make this possible (although it will take a fair bit of work to do so).

Remember that NPCs would become "locked" once they are advanced the first time, just like for normal characters. So there would be no way to advance an NPC with XP and then go muck with the same traits without using XP.

Here's a question: If this bug with Theban Sorcery had not arisen, would this need have ever surfaced?

Oh, and here's a trick you can use in the future if you want. I assume you created the NPC as a basic character and then increased his traits one at a time. If you need to do something like this, consider using Permanent Adjustments. You can use them in either of two ways:

Option #1: Create the character without regard for dot limits, ignoring all validation errors. Then use a few permanent adjustments to grant him more dots that can be assigned. Quick and painless.

Option #2: Use permanent adjustments to assign extra dots to appropriate attributes and skills that exceed the normal dot limits. This isn't as quick as option #1, but it always works.

2) Allow Theban Sorcery levels to be increased when an NPC is given that discipline.

Definitely a bug to be fixed.

3) Allow advancements to be implemented from the actual statistic - that is, if I want to increase a character's Auspex stat, I can simply click on the arrow button and have the appropriate XP deleted from my XP total (rather than going through the advancements screen and four or five clicks for each dot's increase).

This approach is great in concept, but it falls apart once you start to think about all of the implications. For example:

1. How do you track the details of the advancement?
2. How would you delete the advancement?
3. How do you handle adjustments to XP costs dictated by your ST?
4. How do you advance Contacts (where a new contact must be specified)?
5. How do you handle adding new Merits, Disciplines, Specializations, etc.?

Each of the above would require that a different approach be utilized for different purposes. That flies in the face of what's considered "good UI design", since it makes for a confusing, unintuitive interface. The method chosen ensures that a single process flow is used for all facets of advancement. I agree that it isn't the fastest method in cases like attribute improvement, but it's simple and consistent. A lot of thought was given to the advancement logic, and given that advancement will typically be no more than a couple of adjustments after each play session (at most), the approach used seemed optimal - i.e. simple and consistent was more important than fast and efficient. Was this a poor decision?

Note: One of the main reasons for providing a separate mechanism for unrestricted NPC creation was specifically to bypass the inefficiency of advancement. Advancement was designed for PCs - not NPCs.

Oh...a fourth option just occurred to me, but I doubt this would be "implementable" - we have our custom data files, created in the editor, containing things like equipment, disciplines, etc. Would it be possible for the user to be able to edit the core elements? For example, if I could change the Theban Sorcery starting dots when applied to NPCs, it would sidestep the problem as well.

With most things, you can already do this. It's handled via the "Replaces Id" field within the Editor. You can create a copy of something in the Editor. Then specify the "Replaces Id" as the original thing you copied. HL will replace the original with the new thing you've defined. You can use the same name or a different name, as you deem appropriate.

 

[Tashtego]

I found the Advancement tab rather clunky to use for NPC building, especially when I wanted to track their XP expenditure. It's solely designed for building a PC and incrementing their power through XP, little bit by bit, session after session. Why do I want to track XP for NPCs rather than just randomly give them stuff? It's good to have an NPC relative to the PC's power-level. Sure, I can use the NPC builder function and merrily click on dots, but I've got no idea how much XP I'm spending. That's something I want HL to calculate for me.

Also, if the PCs gain XP, I might want to power up my big bad to provide a decent challenge. Hence the desire to spend more XP on an existing NPC and not go through all of the fuss of the Advancement tab, especially if I wish to tweak or undo a setting.

It's also painful to use the advancement tab when creating PCs that start with, say, 150 XP or so, as it forces me down this linear list of adjustments and if I need to undo something or fiddle with my build, it gets tricky. I'd much rather use the initial screen. It's all fun when I do the base character, and then there's the groan as I have to get to the dreaded advancement tab as it's cumbersome and fiddly, especially when doing all of the XP in a big batch.

Maybe lock down the base build, but then use the same editing features to add XP, rather than the Advancement tab interface? And the have a special screen than tracks all of the XP expenditure in a list or table, so you can rearrange the order of these expeditures or delete them at any point of the list without disturbing the rest of the list?