Games Workshop and Army Builder

[Chaospling]

Hey all

First time here, I had to register because of this topic. My main interest is with conflict over ArmyBuilder, but regarding GW copying Orcs and so forth, well a product can look like another to a certain degree and that's it.

Tolkien didn't invent Orcs and Elves from scratch, they are mythological creatures included in ancient fairy tales and folk songs which he, then D&D and GW made popular again. I think we can all agree that there's a big difference (appearance-wise) between orcs in Lord of the Rings, Warhammer Fantasy and Warcraft.


About ArmyBuilder I would sincerely appreciate that people would tell why it shouldn't be wrong for a company to deny other companies to copy their product.

I can see how ArmyBuilder is a helpful tool, but if it makes people stop buying the codices and just buy ArmyBuilder, so they have access to all army books and codices without paying GW a cent, then I can surely see how it can hurt GW. Am I the only one with this opinion?

rob bowes <ro-@wolflair.com> wrote: 
original article:[url]http://www.egroups.com/group/armybuilder/?start=527[/url]
> This is all news to me (and quite disappointing). I'd appreciate
hearing 
> what reactions other users are encountering in different locations. 
> However, there's no need to clutter up the forum with this
information, so 
> please send them to me directly.
> 
> Thanks, Rob
> 
> P.S. I'd also be interested to hear what happens at the Baltimore
GTs, 
> since I know a number of attendees are Army Builder users. I'm going
to the 
> Seattle GT, and I'd prefer not to be surprised by something like this.
> 
> 
> At 11:46 PM 2/8/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >All GW retail employees who go to Baltimore for standard staff
training are
> >being told this. They are also being told that Rob is in violation of
> >copyright for using known Gamesworkshop graphics and trademarks.
Which seems
> >unfounded to me. Further. They are being told that the use of
armylists
> >created using armybuilder is banned in all GW stores. It will also
be banned
> >at all official GamesWorkshop sponsored functions.
> 
> 
I would have snipped this down a bit, but I wanted to leave it all
there before I made my comment.

I played in a tournemant in St. Catharines (Ont.) this past weekend,
and went out to dinner with the store owner and some of the regulars
afterwards.  Part of the conversation can probably help shed some light
of GW's position on Army Builder (though this is the first that I had
heard they are opposed to it.)

GW has been filing copyright complaints against other miniature
companies for their Orks.  Basically claiming that their Orks are too
close to GW's Orks and thus are infringing on their intellectual
property.  This, despite the fact that Orks are ripped off from
Tolkien.  Space Marines are out of Starship Troopers.  Tyranids are out
of Alien.  High Elves, and thus, Space High Elves are pretty much based
on Tolkien as well.   GW has it blinders on in these situations.  They
are protecting their 'intellectual property', despite the fact that
they have lifted much of it off other people's intellectual property.

What I see happening here is that GW is pretty much thinking that if
you can make Codex or Black Book armies without having bought the Codex
or Black Book, this will be classified as a 'Bad Thing'.  Never mind
the fact that you still have buy the minitures and paints, and that's
where the real money comes from.  Or that, if I can judge from most
gamers I have met, simply having Army Builder will not stop them from
buying the Codex and the box anyway.  Gamers are that way, they like to
own it.  They always will be.   All GW is seeing is an infringement of
copyright (which I don't think actually exists) and a threat to sales
of the published material.

They are continuing a very short-sighted policy.  As if they have not
alienated enough people already with drastic price hikes.  I still buy
the stuff, 'cause I like it, and like any gamer, I am willing to pay
the price to own a cool looking miniture that I can paint up.   GW is
the only game in town right now, (don't start on other wargames, they
either have crappy minitures, or a crappy game, or both).   Thus they
are feeling like they can have their own way on these matters.

My opinion is this.   GW should embrace Army Builder, and Roll Call,
and anything else that helps promote their game.   Cutting the time to
make an army list from an hour and a half (which I used to do having to
add up wargear and upgrades and such) down to maybe fifteen minutes has
been a real boon.  It does nothing but help their product.  If I was
GW, I'd tell retailers to stick a computer in their store with the damn
product running.  If somebody wanted to know what army to buy and what
they needed, sit down with them and build an army with them.   There
you go, you need 55 models, and here is what they are.  Plus you'll
need the Codex for all the special rules that go with them.  Cha-ching,
you've probably just made $500 in sales.

But that kind of attitude will probably not happen until Games Workshop
has some real competition in the marketplace.  Until they do, they will
continue to feel like they can treat their consumer like crap.


Geoff

(By the way, did I mention that a gallon of black paint sold by Citadel
would cost $1900 (Can).  Don't even think about painting your house
with it.)

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[Colen]

(NB - I moved this post to a thread of its own because it was bumping a 12 year old, barely related thread.)

In our experience, and the experience of many store owners who we've talked to, Army Builder doesn't stop people from buying the codexes. In fact, AB is viewed as something that adds value to each game system that it supports. This is true for the players AND for the game publishers. Consider the following:

-AB lowers the barrier to entry for new players, which means more new customers (and sales).
-AB simplifies preparation so gamers can spend more time actually painting and players, which means higher sales and more deeply involved players.
-AB encourages players to experiment with new army ideas, which further immerses them into the hobby.
-AB facilitates tournaments and leagues, which further reinforces the enjoyment of large groups of players.
-Etc.

We've talked to hundreds of retailers, and they invariably tell us that AB is a sales tool for them. If it's a sales tool for the retailers, then, by extension, it's a sales tool for the game company as well.

 

[jlong05]

Not sure where this is coming from. The yahoo group quoted post was from 2000. I know for fact that Army Builder lists were allowed at last years Throne of Skulls event in Vegas. I myself turned in an AB list for my army in the event.